Today's episode

[deleted]

Submitted by [deleted] in China (edited )

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Pash wrote (edited )

The Grayzone has some of the better reporting on the 'no genocide' angle: https://thegrayzone.com/tag/uighurs/

The 'no genocide' folks will bring up that 70 countries, including Palestine signed a letter to the UN, saying "What they saw and heard in Xinjiang completely contradicted what was reported in the media": https://ap.ohchr.org/Documents/E/HRC/c_gov/A_HRC_41_G_17.DOCX

For the 'genocide is real' side, the neoliberal subreddit did a good summary:

And there's rationalwiki:

On the left, Gerry Adams and John Pilger have endorsed the Grayzone's reporting: https://twitter.com/johnpilger/status/1364001548485894148?s=20

A lot of this hinges on 'the China Cables', a trove of docs leaked by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists in Nov 2019: https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/read-the-china-cables-documents/ and https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/ – they say that there are secret reeducation camps:

  • "Strict secrecy. The work policy of the vocational skills education and training centers are strong and highly sensitivity. It is necessary to strengthen the staff’s awareness of staying secret, serious political discipline and secrecy discipline. It is strictly forbidden to bring video and video equipment such as mobile phones and cameras into the teaching and management areas and uploading pictures onto the internet"
  • "Never allow escapes" from vocational schools lol

Here's an Indian Marxist-Leninist party saying that China has not denied the authenticity of the China Cables: https://web.archive.org/web/20210216133542/http://cpiml.net/liberation/2020/08/chinas-concentration-camps-for-uyghurs-in-chinas-own-words

Interesting situation with more info still coming out. There's a lot more to it than I can fit here.

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unneeded_junes OP wrote

Thank you so much for your comment. You’ve given me a lot to read, I’ll try and look through it when I can. If you’re able to I’d love to hear a TL;DR but if not I totally understand, it’s a lot of shit to go through.

Interesting situation with more info still coming out. There's a lot more to it than I can fit here.

Have you considered organizing everything on something like a write.as blog post or a pastebin?

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moonlune wrote

Next time don't waste 1h30 on a tankie lol

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ziq wrote (edited )

a tankie so tanked they actually got demodded from r/socialism for posting neonazi propaganda to denounce Uighurs

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unneeded_junes OP wrote

Please include citations in your responses

Considering your insulting and bad faith comments, I emphasize this even more so.

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unneeded_junes OP wrote

LPT: Increase playback speed and skip/skim through less important chapters. Should take 30 min or less.

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ziq wrote

fuck off

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unneeded_junes OP wrote

fuck off

You make an intriguing argument. I, a person who was on the fence on an issue because I’m weary of picking a side, am now surely going to believe that the Uyghur genocide is 100% real because of the warm and welcoming culture of skepticism, empiricism, and logic fostered by the site admin.

Look, I can tell you’re very emotional, but telling people who dare ask questions or ask for clarification to “fuck off” doesn’t help your cause. If anything, you’re really pushing me away from your side of the fence. You haven’t made any arguments, addressed anything said in the video, or debunked any of his sources. If the Uyghur genocide is real, I have to say that people like you certainly make their situation worse. If you had caught me at a bad time or if I were someone who is more easily swayed by emotions, you would have created another genocide denier. I say this not to insult you, but you need to get your shit together.

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Hash_the_Stampede wrote (edited )

If you had caught me at a bad time or if I were someone who is more easily swayed by emotions, you would have created another genocide denier.

Ah, yes. The One Bad Day defense. Let us all be kind and reasonable when arguing in favor of not dying, lest we transform more scores of impressionable forum dwellers into hate mongers.

If someone suddenly turns into a genocide apologist on account of someone else being mean to them on the internet, perhaps that someone should "get their shit together," look inward, and realize their hate was always there. Why should I, or anyone else, be nice to baby nazis? To quote the site admin:

fuck off

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unneeded_junes OP wrote (edited )

Let us all be kind and reasonable when arguing in favor of not dying

You do realize that supporting war with China will cause death and destruction, perhaps even the end of the world... right? Like it’s not just a matter of living or dying, it’s a matter of wtf is going on so we can act appropriately.

If someone suddenly turns into a genocide apologist on account of someone else being mean to them on the internet [...]

That’s not what I meant, I think you know that.

Why should I, or anyone else, be nice to baby nazis?

Because I’m not a “baby nazi”? I asked for others to pick apart a pro-China argument because I’m not informed enough on the topic to do so myself. Y’all have serious issues.

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huh wrote

I asked for others to pick apart a pro-China argument because I’m not informed enough on the topic to do so myself.

It feels like these discussions never go well in leftist circles. It seems like you did post this with good intentions so I'm sorry it got derailed :(

when you said

If you had caught me at a bad time or if I were someone who is more easily swayed by emotions, you would have created another genocide denier.

to me it does seem like you meant

someone suddenly turns into a genocide apologist on account of someone else being mean to them on the internet

If not could you explain the difference?

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unneeded_junes OP wrote

It feels like these discussions never go well in leftist circles. It seems like you did post this with good intentions so I'm sorry it got derailed :(

I appreciate that. I think I could’ve responded better but considering that the conversation started off with people telling me to fuck off because I’m a Nazi, I think I was more than respectful. I know not everyone on Raddle is like this but it’s upsetting to see the admin acting the way they act.

If not could you explain the difference?

I think I worded it terribly so I understand the confusion, I was just trying to quickly respond to everyone. I think I was being too hyperbolic. What would've been more appropriate to say was that REAL Nazi's suffer from serious issues, including mental health issues. Fighting hate with hate only pushes them to hate even more, and thus being hateful towards everyone actually makes everything worse for everyone. It's worse for genocide victims, worse for political discourse, and just worse for everyone's mood.

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lastfutures wrote (edited )

Spirit Breaking: Capitalism and Terror in Northwest China from Chuang (anarchist-friendly publication from China).

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CivilizationsEnd wrote

This piece is likely western propaganda. The original source for it is Darren Byler of the Newlines Institute. I’m sure it contains a lot of truth, but I would be very suspicious of getting wrapped up in their narrative which seems designed to manipulate those with decolonial tendencies

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lastfutures wrote

I'm not sure what you mean, the piece is an original one by Adam Hunerven, based largely on their own interviews there. Chuang is a radical journal out of China, what do you mean it's western propaganda?

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CivilizationsEnd wrote

You should do a very hard look at the citations at the end of the article. That’s a good place to start if you aren’t familiar with the way US intelligence-backed think tanks work

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lastfutures wrote (edited )

Sure, here's one:

[40] Based on dozens of interviews conducted by the author with friends and relatives of those that had been arrested as well as interviews with government officials.

So, can you just make it clear for me what you're actually saying. Is it

a) Some state agency started an ultra-left communist journal in China to target western anarchists, maybe the most most irrelevant group that exists when it comes to international politics, or

b) Even the radicals we might have some affinity with in China have been totally duped by foreign intelligence & don't know what's going on there ... somehow.

I mean, personally I couldn't give less of a shit about what does or doesn't happen in China. I don't believe in the socialist international solidarity bullshit or whatever, but what you're saying just sounds like total conspiracy nonsense to me. Does a person exist in China who's word you would trust, one who doesn't agree with the Chinese state's narrative?

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CivilizationsEnd wrote (edited )

The citations are full of things like the Wilson Center and Human Rights Watch. That doesn’t mean everything in it is untrue, but it does make this unavoidably a work of the American propaganda apparatus.

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lastfutures wrote

You didn't answer the question.

Are you saying that if the Human Rights Watch says something is happening, and someone says it's true, that means they are now American propagandists? Human Rights Watch just never puts an actual fact in their work or what? It's hard to imagine what sources you would accept. You get that the HRW doesn't need to make things up if fucked up things are really happening right?

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CivilizationsEnd wrote

You’re missing the point. HRW is deeply connected to the US MIC https://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/06/09/human-rights-watchs-revolving-door

By definition anything they do is propaganda. It would be foolish not to take this into consideration.

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lastfutures wrote

We're not talking about what they do, we're talking about what Chuang does. You are missing the point.

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bloodrose wrote

Lot of struggle in this thread. I want to say one thing: every time a genocide has been denied, there has been countering proof. I've never heard of a genocide that when people looked into it turned out to be actually fake. Have you?

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zoom_zip wrote

this thread has been a real fuckin blast

thanks

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Hopium wrote

I've been reading both sides.

It's pretty interesting, especially as I don't have a dog in the fight so I get to see propaganda and counter-propaganda.

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ziq wrote (edited )

always important to listen to both sides. nazis vs jews, Turks vs Armenians, Canada vs natives, USA vs slaves, British vs Indians, truly a marketplace of ideas

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Hopium wrote

I agree.

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ziq wrote

i was being sarcastic if that wasn't clear

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Hopium wrote

I agree nevertheless. ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

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Defasher wrote

what's it like being that piece of shit that clings to the side of the bowl no matter how many times you flush?

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moonlune wrote (edited )

god I missed you defasher

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Hopium wrote

I beg your pardon?

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Defasher wrote

genocide apologists are pieces of shit

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Bezotcovschina wrote (edited )

"Well, I see, it's a controversial topic I know very little about, and it seems like a lot of propaganda going around it, so I've decided to study this topic a bit more, try myself to find information about it"

"You piece of shit!"

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Defasher wrote

because giving equal consideration to both the nazi and the jewish perspective on the holocaust is oh so reasonable

this site is going to shit

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Bezotcovschina wrote (edited )

When the only mainstream source of information other then official CPC is Radio Free Asia, it seems only reasonable to dig into topic yourself and it necessary means to at least consider official reports. Because, if you try to "own" some genocide apologist on a subject, they will throw those reports at you, so you better be familiar with it.

this site is going to shit

From my perspective, the best time on raddle is right now.

EDIT: I've spent several minutes thinking about it, and, yeah, on the other hand, ignorance is a poor excuse in this situation. And "I have no dog in this fight, so I consider both propaganda and counter-propaganda" is a little bit of a shitty way to phrase it.

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Pash wrote (edited )

You don't give any weight to Nazi documents on the Holocaust, like the Wannsee briefing docs or Müller's telegram?

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Defasher wrote

All I need is the testimony of the Jewish people who were in the camps, and the nazi documents weren't released by the nazis deliberately, so your point isn't as astute as you think it is. Trusting a genociding state's PR statements on the genocide is not the same as trusting classified documents seized after that state collapses.

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Pash wrote (edited )

and the nazi documents weren't released by the nazis deliberately

That's my point: similar to the China Cables, and the Ürümqi police docs The Intercept got in January.

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Hopium wrote

I agree.

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107a wrote

But you feel the need to listen to their perspective..?

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Hopium wrote

You need facts before you make conclusions/judgements/labels.

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107a wrote

And you believe the atrocity committers will give you facts about their atrocities?

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Hopium wrote

First we need to find out what atrocities did or did not happen.

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Hash_the_Stampede wrote

You need facts before you make conclusions/judgements/labels.

Uh. Have you actually met any other humans?

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Hopium wrote

Just because other people are sloppy, that's no reason to be sloppy.

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Hash_the_Stampede wrote

Sorry. Didn't realize we had omniscient posters on raddle.

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Hopium wrote

Read the thread: lots of them here lol!

They know everything in advance without checking any of the facts or evidence.

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107a wrote

So I gather you're a proponent of getting facts and evidence from the police and the KKK before condemning them for executing people? And giving equal voice to concentration camp guards as the people they interned?

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unneeded_junes OP wrote (edited )

  1. Umm... Yes? I get the point you’re trying to make, but it’s a stupid one at that. If you’re not willing to look into anything and just believe whatever is told to you, you’re just an anti-intellectual who (in terms of how they rationalize things) is just as bad as Nazis and Colonizers. You just happened to come from a country and time where they’re generally opposed to the things you mentioned. If you had grown up in Nazi Germany you would willingly fight for the fatherland because surely anyone who you are told is evil must be evil and looking into it also makes you evil.

  2. All of these examples are historical examples, meaning they’ve happened or started a long time ago. This gives us the ability to better analyze what’s happened without the fear of what’s going to happen in the future. However with an event being carried out in the present moment, our conclusions and actions we take now will change the fate of humanity forever. Starting WWIII or not starting WWIII seems like a pretty big deal, don’t you?

  3. Serious question, are you in favor of the invasion of Iraq or US imperialism in general? If not now, did you support the invasion in the past? Why or why not?

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moonlune wrote (edited )

FYI we try to avoid implying intellectual disability around here. Please use Uninformed, reckless, impulsive, ignorant, risk-taking, risky and dangerous, dipshit. It's not a problem just take note for future comments.

  1. don't compare people who oppose genocide to nazis and colonizers.

  2. Are you implying that letting a population get erased is a viable a political strategy?

  3. lol

Fuck you tankie piece of shit

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unneeded_junes OP wrote

FYI we try to avoid implying intellectual disability around here.

I don’t know what I said that implies intellectual disability? I’m disabled myself so I try to avoid that language too because it’s also used against me as well.

  1. don't compare people who oppose genocide to nazis and colonizers.

You completely missed my point. I wasn’t saying opposing genocide is the same as genocide. I was saying that blindly following what you are told makes you just as “impulsive” as a Nazi. Them not being a Nazi was literally mere chance based on where they happened to be born. (assuming they would use the same thinking they use now)

  1. Are you implying that letting a population get erased is a viable a political strategy?

What?

  1. lol

Well you’re against China because of witnesses and claims made by the American military industrial complex... Is this not exactly what happened with Iraq?

Fuck you tankie piece of shit

You’re mad that I somehow implied intellectual disability because I said they are being illogical, but then go ahead and call a disabled LibSoc a “tankie piece of shit” because they’re asking others to pick apart pro-China arguments because I am not informed enough to do so myself.

I gotta say, here are the vibes I’m getting: You’re the type of people who blindly support US imperialism. You’re the type of people who criticize everything in their armchairs rather than doing anything good in the real world. You’re the type of people who pretend to be concerned about bigotry, disability, etc but in the same breath will happily attack random people for literally no reason.

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[deleted] wrote

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anarchyfrog wrote

There's a difference between vague passive aggressive shit like "you're problematic" and straight up telling someone to fuck off for saying we should listen to fascists to see if maybe their targets deserved it.

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Pash wrote

The debate's not about deservingness; it's about the facts of what is/isn't happening to the Uighurs.

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