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An_Old_Big_Tree wrote

I don't really care, I guess. There are too many unknown variables for me to have a sense of the consequences of, say, banktellers having more money.

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debored wrote (edited )

No, I mostly just wonder what they get out of it. Inequality has never been something I care all that much about. Resentment towards those higher in the hierarchy seems to miss the whole point imo. Being jealous of those with more things is capitalist as fuck.

Of course having more money does often lead to people having worse opinions, but that's a seperate issue.

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steelypan wrote

You think it's jealousy that makes people upset about being raped while sleeping on the cold street in the dead of winter because some investor or CEO bought all the free real estate and drove prices beyond what they could afford?

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debored wrote (edited )

The question was about workers, which I took to mean people who make good money but do not control much of anything. Ie. Doctors and software developers not capitalist real estate speculators.

But yes I still think it's strange to be personally upset with one speculator, as if the problem is this one asshole and not a global capitalist system that he is merely filling his role in. It's resentment or misdirected anger.

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steelypan wrote (edited )

If you think no capitalist real estate speculator has ever worked a job, I'm not sure where you think they all came from.

According to the Internet, Jeff Bezos worked for McDonald's when he was young. He then got an education and moved into the tech industry, and saved up some money. Once he had enough money, he pivoted into banking and other "financial services," scraping lots of extra funds off of other people who were doing real work. He then used that money to fund his entrepreneurial adventures, and hit it big with Amazon. Now he uses his vast wealth and market influence to shut down things like minimum wage increases and unemployment benefits, desperate to ensure no one else can ever get as rich as him.

He is maintaining the global capitalist system. He is a key player in the global capitalist system. And he started off as just another worker, but one greedy enough to claw his way to the top and kick the ladder down once he got there.

That's where "the system" comes from. It's not some sort of accident, and it's not self-generating. It's deliberately designed and maintained by people who want to be on top and see everyone else squirming at their feet.

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debored wrote

I'm not sure why you think I'm saying capitalists never worked a job? Ziq used the word 'worker' in his post, that word generally refers to the working class, as opposed to the capitalist class. Bezos may have been a worker at some point, but then later became a capitalist, which is why my comment was not directed at people like him - ziq didn't ask how we feel about capitalists.

As for the rest, I just think that's a very shallow conspiratorial analysis. The personal sociopathic desires, or lack thereof, of Jeff Bezos are nothing without centuries of capitalist development behind him - without the subservience of his fellow 350 million Americans - without the propaganda of schools & media - without cops and troops - and so on. His own desires are even constructed from accidents of history.

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steelypan wrote

The problem in your analysis is that "capitalist" isn't just a social or economic position. It's also the philosophical alignment of people who believe in and support capitalism.

But if you'd rather claim that Jeff Bezos isn't a cause or contributor in any fashion to any of our current economic climate, I'll ask you a question: who is? Who is the great historical evil capitalist who somehow brainwashed hundreds of millions of people across history to be terrible to each other against their will?

And how is this a "less shallow," "less conspiratorial" analysis than admitting that some people are just greedy and mean?

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debored wrote

The problem in your analysis is that "capitalist" isn't just a social or economic position. It's also the philosophical alignment of people who believe in and support capitalism.

Not from the leftist/Marxist class analysis that I assumed was being used here. Workers philosophically aligned with capitalism would still be considered workers, but ones with false consciousness. Worker/capitalist is about one's material relation to the means of production, not one's beliefs.

That's not my analysis though, I was just interpreting the question. The worker/capitalist dichotomy can be thrown out entirely for all I care.

But if you'd rather claim that Jeff Bezos isn't a cause or contributor in any fashion to any of our current economic climate, I'll ask you a question: who is? Who is the great historical evil capitalist who somehow brainwashed hundreds of millions of people across history to be terrible to each other against their will?

There isn't one. That's the whole point. This world wasn't deliberately designed by a handful of mean people. Bezos is a cause, but also an effect.

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steelypan wrote

I'm not a Marxist. I'm an anarchist. I don't believe in Marxism.

Rather, I believe that Marx is fundamentally the father of state capitalism. No matter how you look at it, every political leader in history who has cited him as an influence has been either a fascist themselves, or immediately succeeded by one.

And, indeed, Marxist analysis will always lead to this outcome, because Marxist analysis always eventually concludes that some more enlightened people who are magically Better than everyone else must rise above our foolish repetition of history, step in, and lead all the Worthless Poors (lumpenproletariat, et al) to a brighter future. Once you've arrived at that conclusion, your course of action is clear: you install a dictatorship supposedly on behalf of the people... and then, immediately, every time, it turns out that the kind of people who would seek such a position of power are fundamentally rotten and immediately use the power structure for their own personal enrichment, trodding over the rights and livelihood of all those people you just disenfranchised with snarl words like "false consciousness."

And your willingness to throw the victims of capitalism under the bus with some nonsensical excuse about how those rich people don't count because they're not rich enough, and the ones who are rich enough are Really Actually Victims Guys I Swear, shows just how rotten your entire philosophy is.

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debored wrote

How am I willing to throw the victims of capitalism under the bus? Because I don't fetishize Jeff Bezos as the embodiment of pure evil? If you think shooting Jeff Bezos would fix all your problems, then by all means go ahead.

It's funny that you wrote all that about Marxism, given that you sound like every Stalinist dipshit that thinks if only we could line up all the billionaires on the wall capitalism & hierarchy would be over. Sorry bud but that's naive as fuck. Your resentment for these individuals only strengthens the logic of the state & capital - hiding systemic forces behind your christian moral scolding.

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steelypan wrote (edited )

I don't think Bezos is the embodiment of pure evil. I could name hundreds more people throughout history who have been at least as bad, and many who were worse. (And that's just off the top of my head.)

If you honestly believe I place all the blame for our current mess on Bezos and his compatriots, you weren't reading what I said properly. Bezos wasn't born rich, he "earned" it--by taking every opportunity he had to fleece as many people as he legally could. And there are many, many people who would do the same, given the opportunity.

Some people are rotten. Some people are selfish, and greedy, and callous, and cruel. And no matter how much you point to culture and systemic problems, these people will never stop being themselves. An ideological capitalist will take any chance you give them to steal from you, because it is simply who they are.

So I'm not saying we need to line all the billionaires up. There are a hell of a lot more people than just the billionaires who would love to have you licking their boots... and because of that, if you actually care about freedom in any sense, you have to be prepared to deal with that psychopathic behaviour--coming from anyone, of any social standing, at any time.

Because some people are just like that.

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[deleted] wrote

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steelypan wrote (edited )

many individuals over time that contributed to the development of the system as it exists today

I do fundamentally agree with this statement. I disagree with the point where you somehow conclude that, because many people have willfully created an evil system, there's magically no one at fault.

The opposite is true. Everyone who contributes to that system is at fault.

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[deleted] wrote

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steelypan wrote

I agree. I'm just saying the first step to solving the problem is placing the blame exactly where it is, every time.

Shifting the blame just means no one is ever going to own up to their mistakes, and nothing will ever be improved.

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steelypan wrote

Generally. Most people who make more money than others are taking advantage of an unequal power dynamic, so it's generally a form of abuse at best.

Bankers take your money hostage. Lawyers take your future hostage. Doctors take your life hostage (and psychiatrists often take you, personally, hostage).

It doesn't help that it's then the kind of people who really love money (in other words, ideological capitalists) who go out of their way to get these jobs. Or that the actual most valuable jobs we have--for example, teacher--have never in history been well-paid.

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shanc wrote

the actual most valuable jobs we have--for example, teacher--have never in history been well-paid.

School teachers are worse than bankers. At least bankers have a sense that their work is bad for people; school teachers think that they're saving the world when they're shouting in a kid's face.

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steelypan wrote

Don't get me wrong. A lot of teachers are pieces of shit and enforce an obviously broken system... at best.

But teaching is still an important job that needs doing, and can actually help everyone if done right.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

When the police shoot someone, usually I hope that someone can stand up to the police union. The problem is, nobody really does, just like the praetorian guard long ago

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6c_6f_76_65 wrote

I don't root against just because of better pay. I root against the fact that people make exponentially more than others. Then those same people congregate enmasse. This drives up the cost of housing, goods, and services beyond what current residents can afford.

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