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actuallyALiberal wrote

Representative democracy is the most effective form of government.

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ziq wrote

I'm curious, why do you think that? Haven't you noticed how ineffective it is, with the rich hoarding all the wealth and buying politicians to make laws to give them more wealth and give us less freedoms?

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actuallyALiberal wrote

Even if you accept those things as true, it still has worked better than any other system that's been tried.

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jadedctrl wrote

That doesn't mean we can't try new systems, and have to hold onto this innefective system for eternity.

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LostYonder wrote

It has? Every system molded within the divisive and inhumane system of nation-states has inherently failed. The question is - is it the system of political organization or is it the nation-state that in fact undermines and limits our democratic possibilities. As long as we map political systems within a nation-state model, they will all fail...

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ConfettiEggnog wrote

The nation state is far more recent than democracy. Before 1848 only few people knew about the concept of nationality - something invented probably in the 16th or 17th century

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LostYonder wrote (edited )

I'm not aware of democracy actually being practiced anywhere. Some countries have degrees of liberal electoral democracy, but even that is mostly failed experiments in rule of the elite classes. Electoral democracy has no history beyond the nation-state and the construction of the idea of universal citizenship (which, again, doesn't actually exist anywhere).

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ConfettiEggnog wrote

You mean the usual example with Ancient Athens makes that Athens a nation state?

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LostYonder wrote

Seriously? Athens, a democracy? what do you even mean by democracy? How can a slave society be considered a democracy? not to mention the total exclusion of women.

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ConfettiEggnog wrote

So democracy has a special, particular meaning. Wouldn't be easier to just use the dictionary terms for communication sake, instead of making endless opportunities to move the goalposts?

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ConfettiEggnog wrote

Representative democracy is the most effective form of government.

known at the time. Try to frame it, instead of giving it as an universal solution.