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7

Green_Mountain_Makhno wrote

Absolutely. Chaos is an integral part of the universe. It's what inserts randomness to the world, it creates space for freedom of action, it gives us surprises, black swan events, and is the only way for any of us to hope for freedom.

6

ravengrace wrote

Chaos can mean anything. For some people because of their privelage it might mean fun and freedom but for others it means addiction , pain, starvation, abuse, suffering , and not being safe as a result of the actions of oppression by the state.

5

ziq wrote (edited )

It annoys me when people say 'anarchy isn't about chaos'.

Of course it is. Fuck 'order'. Chaos is freedom. It can't be controlled. It can't be broken in. It can't be manufactured.

-1

[deleted] wrote

2

amongstclouds wrote

The opposite of order is NOT chaos. It's disorder. Chaos is something much more primordial beyond typical 'good and bad'.

4

trashcan wrote

Yeah. Chaos can be beautiful. It's inevitable and something to be embraced. In my eyes order easily becomes a threat to freedom.

4

rot wrote

define "chaos"

2

ziq wrote

Disorder

6

amongstclouds wrote

I do not think chaos is the same thing as disorder. Order and disorder is entrenched in the subject-object dichotomy and chaos is something beyond as it contains both order and disorder within it's range.

3

ziq wrote (edited )

Is there an example of chaos that can be easily digested? Because I don't really follow.

5

amongstclouds wrote

Copypasta incoming of some useful ideas and concepts you could look into!

Chaos Theory: Predicting the future of a chaotic system is intractably hard. Failing to account for the tiniest thing can have a profound effect over time. Because of this, we'll never be able to accurately predict even the weather more than a few days in advance, let alone human behavior, animal behavior, the stock market, etc.

Quantum Mechanics: Even if we had a perfect mathematical model for a system, we could never provide accurate inputs to that model.

The Uncertainty Principle says we can't know everything about a particle's state at a given point in time.

The Copenhagen Interpretation gives the Universe a probabilistic nature. We can reason about the probability of outcomes, but cannot state exactly what an outcome will be.

Gödel's incompleteness theorems: We can never have such a perfect mathematical model for everything, because there will always be some theorems which are true which cannot be proved.

Halting problem: We cannot even identify the theorems which cannot be proved, nor can we guarantee algorithms we write will produce an answer in a finite amount of time, nor can we necessarily know up-front that an algorithm may not produce an answer.

It's all the same idea. There's a boundary on what we can know, model, and compute. There is no clockwork model for the Universe.

4

amongstclouds wrote

There are limits to human understanding. For a time people imagined the world to function like a machine. If we just simply understood how everything existed and how they function, we could understand anything there is to know. Sadly, there are people who think they can exceed those limits and those are the people we should be wary of.

Chaos theory states that trying to predict the movement of a chaotic system is painstakingly hard. Missing even the most obscure detail can seriously effect the future of said system. Through this we should see that we’ll NEVER be able to predict human behavior, animal behavior, nor even the weather with any ounce of REAL confidence.

Chaos is just the ebb and flow of many intersecting points. The idea of order and disorder are grossly human and attempt to exert control over the chaos that truly envelops everything. This all turns back to the problem of domestication. We truly think we can be the masters of everything. We’re going to fall flat on our face soon.

2

rot wrote

This is the problem with questions like is X good? When talking about abstract notions like chaos.

1

rot wrote

So a lack of intelligent planning i.e. random chance or lack of formal organization like a mosh pit where everyone runs around "chaotically" but there are limits and participants consciously choose independently what to do?

2

amongstclouds wrote

Chaos is neither good nor bad; order nor disorder; this nor that. It's a name for that which cannot be named and you either see it or you don't.

2

robottroymacclure wrote

do we have the language to describe a preferable state of being in regards to creative chaos vs stifling order? i dont think we have the words yet to describe what we really seek in a simple and straight forward way, so blah blah blah blah blah....

1

ravengrace wrote

What people who think chaos= anarchy have done, in the name of anarchy

  • steal my clothes
  • shit their pants while sober when theres a toilet or grass available
  • never help with the dishes

What anarchy actually is:

  • self autonomy -working together in a community -respecting boundaries
  • ending opression

How the state has used chaos: Putting infiltrators at occupation camps to cause drama and chaos, disorganization Killing peoples family members to weaken organizers

2

theblackcat wrote

I feel like you're not listening to what everyone is saying. Chaos isn't any of things you listed. The state can't manufacture chaos, no one can.

1

ravengrace wrote

When I think of people equating chaos with anarchy, I think of people who have only ever Watched Sons of Anarchy. And the manarchist assholes I've had to deal with who think anything goes lol.

1

surreal wrote

absolutely, it's also inevitable so no fuzz

-1

Zzzxxxyyy wrote

Generally, I’d say the powerful are able to turn chaos into opportunity. But a well organized and prepared opposition can use chaos as well. Chaos may expose the illegitimacy of power structures, either when they fail to leverage the opportunity or if they leverage it too adeptly.

-1

ravengrace wrote

No , chaos is not good and has nothing to do with anarchism. Chaos is randomness and disorder . Sometimes I've craved chaos but it can also mean anything , so people can get hurt .. Anarchism is non-hierarchical ORGANIZING... organizing not chaos. We don't organize for chaos. We have a purpose which is to end oppression of all people not just random disorder. The state /enemy / whatever you want to call it loves when we 're in chaos.

2

amongstclouds wrote

The state actually loves it when they have MORE reason to enforce their 'order' over others. This does not imply chaos at all. The states mortal enemy is chaos. It likes thing's neatly placed within the subject-object dichotomy and only uses disorder as a temporary means of achieving 'order'.

So watch who you call an ancap. ;)

0

ravengrace wrote

I agree with that first part. But when I say chaos I'm talking about disorganization and randomness. For a lot of people chaos means violence and abuse. Chaos is a part of life like sadness etc doesn't mean I'm looking for it. It could literally mean anything so I think its kind of pretentious to say you like chaos while some people do live in chaos and don't want to. But I think maybe we are defining chaos differently :)

0

ravengrace wrote

Also I I think of being in an abusive relationship ... That feeling where you don't know what to expect. Thats what I equate to chaos. I understand how destruction is part of creation but the world is the destruction side , I'm the creation side . When I destroy, I also create. But I'm just not looking for things that destroy me.

-1

ravengrace wrote (edited )

I still think equating anarchy with chaos is ancappy

3

thelemotta wrote

Nowadays I tend to draw my anarchist theoretical view from a mystical / spiritual perspective, i.e. i constantly borrow concepts from Taoism and poetry. Chaos is one of those concepts, can equates to Dao in my view.

amongstclouds did a good job explaining scientific concepts that I find useful when thinking about Chaos and what we can incorporate from there. Psychology, Jung, Reich and others transpersonal psychologists ( I'm a low-speed reader, and the book pile is always growing) can give wonderful insights.

I personally tend to be idealistic and dragged to romanticism for my own good, so sorry for my badtrip about Chaos hahaha.

2

amongstclouds wrote (edited )

Chaos is the tao is the name which cannot be named is the creative nothing is the reality I've come to know and agree with.

2

amongstclouds wrote

I also came to anarchism through my practice of zazen, occultism, and spiritual thinking in general.

It's actually kind of bizarre we both ended up here. Usually people who dabble in these things end up bring right-leaning market worshipers.

2

thelemotta wrote

Or monarchists, aristocrats and weird fash. Sadly this kind of field, specifically occultism tend to orbitate rich bourgeois and authoritarian people.

I'm glad that you are here too! :)

0

ravengrace wrote

Only people who think chaos is a part of anarchy are ancaps

1

theblackcat wrote

Capitalism is the opposite of chaos. It's completely controlled by the wealthy as a rigid hierarchy that's designed to beat you into submission.

-1

ravengrace wrote

The oppisite of capitalism is non-hierarchical organizing. Theres tons of chaos under capitalism .

For example I set boundaries. Respecting those boundaries is anarchist. Disrespecting them , because randomness , is not anarchist .

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Zzzxxxyyy wrote

lol, are you talking to yourself?