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[deleted] wrote

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red_pepper wrote

I very much agree, and add to this that leftists sometimes confuse an inability to articulate with irrationality (and, conversely, articulation with rationality). Just because someone can't defend one of their beliefs doesn't mean it's indefensible. It just means they haven't had practice defending it. And just because someone can defend their beliefs doesn't mean it's good. It just means they're good at defending.

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Dumai wrote

hidden secret: rationality is the most bourgeois of bourgeois values

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deadaluspark wrote (edited )

extra hidden secret: rationality is informed by emotion, and people who cannot experience emotion are unable to rationalize.

to pretend you are "above" emotion and only look at things "rationally" is missing the fucking point.

also, if you're an atheist and you pull that shit, it's even more infuriating, because guess what fuckstick, you're an irrational animal just like anyone else!! putting yourself and other humans on a fucking pedestal is the same shit religious people do.

by rejecting people who are "not smart" we are rejecting the people most likely to be exploited in the world because they lack the educational capacity to know they are being exploited. to reject them and dismiss them is to be dismissing people's real lives and emotions, which still really matter, even if they aren't smart/can't communicate well.

I spent my youth reading all the academics, and I'll spend my adulthood thinking fuck-none-of-them speak for me or understand my life and situations. I'm looking at you Noam Chomsky, Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Slavoj Zizek, etc, etc. sometimes it feels like the only academic I can read without wanting to scream anymore is Cornel West.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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Dumai wrote (edited )

the genealogy of rationality is incredibly misogynist, classist, and racist - it sometimes stuns me that there are radicals who apparently do not know this.

anyway! if you're and atheist an your opinion of religion is that it is "irrational" then you are almost certainly an islamophobe. and speaking of separation of church and state, isn't it interesting that france's state secularism, which is among the most strongly established in the western world, is often weaponised against the country's muslim minority, hmmm

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[deleted] wrote

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

also, "rationality" became oppressive itself. colonised peoples were depicted/portrayed/understood as less rational and this was part and parcel of the justification for the 'civilising' process.

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Dumai wrote

and this is why it's not a coincidence that many important liberal theorists (j.s. mill springs to mind here) produced a lot of imperialist ideology!

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zorblax wrote (edited )

anyway! if you're and atheist an your opinion of religion is that it is "irrational" then you are almost certainly an islamophobe.

Such an atheist would say that Islam is a religion and therefore hating/fearing it makes perfect sense.

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Dumai wrote

and they'd be dumb to do that, especially if they're going to deny islamophobia has any racist content

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zorblax wrote (edited )

Why? I think it's dumb to favor Islam in particular because or some misguided fear of being racist.

Islam is the ideological bedrock of oppression and heirarchy just like almost every other religion. It's racist to focus on that, sure, but ignoring it is just as ignorant.

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Dumai wrote

you don't have to favour it but presenting it as a monolithic backwards culture or ideology is very racist yes

there's a huge difference between "islam has historically been used to legitimate oppression" and "islam is an inherently oppressive other that must be secularised (read: westernised) into passivity"

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zorblax wrote

Okay, so does a hatred of all religions including Islam necessarily mean that someone believes the second?

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NeoliberalismKills wrote

Religion is like any other tool. It can be wielded for good or bad. Islam inspired Malcom X. Christianity inspired King and many of the abolitionists.

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Dumai wrote

what i find interesting is that there has never been a clear-cut correlation between atheism and left-leaning politics in most places in america, but it's really common nowadays in american politics to assume there is

am i to believe now that catholic socialism wasn't one of the most vibrant left-wing movements in the us? or that the civil rights movement wasn't by and large a religious movement? jewish socialism? like really

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zorblax wrote

I don't think that makes it neutral. Money, war, state power, they're all tools, and they've all been put to good use at one point or another, but they're still bad.

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Dumai wrote

you're right that religion is never politically neutral but you're wrong that religion is always inherently oppressive

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shanoxilt wrote

I seriously disagree.

The whole world privileges neurotypical emotional inconsistency under the guise of "human nature". There has to be a way to hold neurotypicals accountable that can be demonstrated and replicated by others.

To do otherwise is to be at the mercy of [PDF WARNING] white women's tears.

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[deleted] wrote

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shanoxilt wrote

Emotions are always privileged.

In practice, very few people actually use the cognitive and epistemic tools that have been developed to fight biases. Instead, we get fallacious appeals to "common sense" and "just believing".

People on the left have a huge problem keeping their emotional toxicity and scientific ignorance in check. I'm not looking to be bombarded by a new flavor of "secularized" (note the sarcasm quotes) dogma.

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ziq wrote (edited )

Adding to this, there are a lot of leftists that diminish any politic that doesn't provide clear answers. For example, Marxists insist anarchism doesn't offer a template for attaining full communism - so that invalidates anarchism in their eyes as 'impractical', 'utopian' (for ancoms) or 'lifestylist' (for anarchists).

Meanwhile, no Marxist has ever achieved full communism, so their expectation for impossible promises is nonsensical. We're not going to promise them perfect lives if they join our special club, because that's not how anarchy (or reality) works.

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Catsforfun wrote (edited )

feelings do have logic behind them, we just aren't immediately aware of the logic all the time. Sometime you have to think about why you feel a certain something is right or wrong, but doesn't mean you don't have a thought process. The thought process of very often subconscious.

this is why listening to your feelings is important, but also analyzing them too.

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