Submitted by leftous in AskRaddle

Please don't be hung up on the word "left" - by that I just mean anti-capitalist/anti-oppressive allies.

I was curious about what people thought regarding the unconscious and unfair biases prevalent within leftist communities. Moreover, how we can become more conscious of these biases, and accommodate those who are being excluded.

The question was prompted by a friend of mine (with a learning disability) who finds a lot of the language leftists use inaccessible to him.

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kittybecca wrote

This gets said a lot, but a big part of the left is too centered around cities and even openly contemptuous of people in rural areas and/or small towns. A big way of changing this might be for people from rural areas and small towns to, where possible, talk to their families and other people back home, keep a dialog open and do their best to change minds. If you approach it the right way, if you say "we all..." rather than "you need to..." etc., if you have a conversation rather than talking at other people, if you advance your argument in a way that doesn't make you sound like some elitist ass who is trying to make everyone bow to your newfound wokeness, you can accomplish more than you might think.

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red_pepper wrote

It's also critical to understand the material conditions of these people and how those conditions play into their seemingly ignorant opinions. the way people's employment interacts with their belief in climate change is my go to example for this.

A combination of environmental regulations and renewable/natural gas growth has lead to a massive contraction in the coal industry. In turn, this has lead to the loss of a lot of well paying jobs and the collapse of pensions and the decline of coal unions. In return, they got a bunch of ununionized fracking jobs and solar installation jobs without the same benefits or wages or job security. They had to retrain to do those jobs too, and many people who were in their 50's just retired early. Worse, those jobs weren't located in the same area and so many have had to uproot their lives to move to where the jobs are. This has also lead to the decline of the rest of the economy in coal country.

Convincing these people that climate change is a deadly threat that needs to be fought aggressively is impossible in these material conditions. It's not a matter of education or propaganda, and no amount of arguing will ever sway them. In order to actually bring them on board, we need to change their conditions. Unionize solar and gas, or bail out the pensions, or something. Give them a reason to fight climate change, rather than force them to sacrifice even more when they have already lost so much for the "greater good". Yet, what does the left have to offer? Ridicule, exclusion, and zero sympathy. As if they deserve to lose their jobs and way of life. This needs to change.

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An_Old_Big_Tree wrote

The global south.

For a start, do some reading about (de)colonisation!

Also the differently abled.

Raddle is generally pretty bad with both I think.

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[deleted] wrote

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An_Old_Big_Tree wrote

I'm always working on it :)

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AudibleAnarchist wrote

Would any of you like to read some essays/book on the subject?

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An_Old_Big_Tree wrote

I'm always doing that :)

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AudibleAnarchist wrote

Like for an audio-book.

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ziq wrote

Make a thread asking for volunteers?

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nijntje wrote

I just joined but I read through the faq/wiki and noticed (as a european) that it's still pretty us-centered.

I mean looking at f/news and roughly eyeballing it, the majority is about the US, there's some general non-place specific news (blockchain, facebook, etc—still mostly 'western' countries), a handful of european, and fairly little from other countries.

i'm not sure how that can be fixed since it's an audience issue and i've just joined…

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An_Old_Big_Tree wrote

Ohhhh. Whoops. Do you typically work with the general public to record audiobooks? You might want to post a call in f/audiobooks or something. You could chat with u/leftous and get them to sticky it there.

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libre_dev wrote

There's certainly a neurotypical bias in the left, but I don't know if much can be done about it. Less "beep boop" memes perhaps? I know the fempire cleaned up their act in this regard a while back

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

I feel like the Left in particular is needlessly hostile to religious folk, and something that alienates me in particular is the use of my Self against my Self, if that makes sense. I get really angry when transhumanists use me as a political piece against primitivists, or when religion as a whole is thrown by the wayside because all religion must be abrahamic and how could a pious trans person exist? It's a wild fucking ride to be called transphobic for not wanting the kind of massive world-spanning strip mines needed to give full body prosthetics and matrix uplinks to everyone, as if people like me would ever be able to afford these wonders in the first place. Fuck, I could barely afford the laptop I'm typing this on or the hormones coursing through my system.

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drh1138 wrote

Lower-class whites, particularly those in rural settings.

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An_Old_Big_Tree wrote

I tend to think that this is the "worker" that most old-school anticapitalists are talking about, so I'm not sure why you think this.

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drh1138 wrote (edited )

Perhaps in a past age. Nearly everyone I talk to or associate with at least passively looks down on the uneducated, toothless backwoods yokels and their values and lifestyle while simultaneously claiming to be working for their material liberation.

Leftism as it exists today (in the West, at least) is a movement for middle class college activists. Still mostly white, but primarily educated, suburban, and middle class.

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AbbraKaDabbra wrote

Because the Media want to create a divide between people to drive views for profit and nothing gets more views that outrage. Outrage is click-bait and the more someone is triggered the more views they get hence the more advertisers get and people see the results. Cycle starts again.

This resonates and creates a feedback loop that we, "Everybody" buys into so we create a culture of exclusion because somebody thinks differently and we're all guilty, "Left and Right which is an illusion made to control us", so we then shit-post looking for ways to trigger people until we're taking psychotropic medication that has on the box "May experience violent outbursts" making big pharma money and helping the propaganda networks: "All news is propaganda and they get paid for by big pharma".

We used to be about freedom of choice and we have been tricked. Why are we the side pushing for policies, you do realize that the whole PC culture comes from Politically Correct. When did Liberal mean Politically Correct? Now we're pushing for policies to police language. Why? Shouldn't we rely on Liberal values of tolerance and acceptance? We used to be the Rock Stars and the just let them be crowd, now as soon as you open your mouth and the wrong word comes out everybody jumps down your throat and needs to tell you how you're wrong, it's making us into the dictators, the party poopers. <<< this will probably get this message flagged which would be ironic and sad but true which means that liberal values are dead.

We were the ones who celebrated great songs like "We Are The Champions", but all that we seem to value now is how much we've been hurt. I thought the nuggets of info behind the hard lessons was how we overcame the problem not how much the problem has destroyed us and we need pity. Something has happened and The news always seems to be leading this ALL THE NEWS <<< It's all the same cake, we're just getting different parts. It's time to boycott the news and stop being victims and be victors instead, no matter how much you try saying we are all equals, truth is that everyone is different and categorizing people pisses them off, it doesn't matter how and also diffuses heated arguments about inequality so that we can actually find a solution. We need to bridge the gap and prove that we're tolerant. Just saying it's so means nothing until we show it. <<< otherwise we look hypocritical

We should also be forgiving of who makes mistakes. I say stupid things all the time but now I'm afraid to speak just because I might say something now that will get me fired later on and that's a real problem. People make mistakes and they change their minds, why are we so unforgiving? Also when we are insulting people instead of the message that they are preaching by attacking their character, it shows that we really haven't done our homework and we're after them as a person and not their idea which could be destructive.

Also accepting violence as a means to an end means that we cross a line where it isn't politics anymore but straight out war. Why do we war? What happened? We are supposed to be the neo-hippies, now we're putting on masks and beating people up on the street. <<< This is why "The Left" is unpopular, we need to boycott the news, they are destroying us. They call themselves Liberal and they're just Propagandists and they're using us for their means.

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zorblax wrote (edited )

UNPOPULAR OPINION INCOMING

pedophiles, and more broadly anyone with extreme sexual/personality dysfunction.

Lefties seem to have this weird fixation on pedophilia, equating simply having that desire to some sort of affront to humanity. Most pedophiles are not child rapists. It's weird because people will do this whole song and dance to avoid being ableist while basically saying that pedophiles need to be culled.

I think it has to do with an underlying ideological belief that all people are good at heart. It's just not true. There are some people that have truly fucked up minds, no matter what society or situation they're born into, and you have to just accept that and recognize them as people anyway.

EDIT: also, this whole "you're with us or against us" attitude that so many on the left have. It's extremely toxic.

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ziq wrote (edited )

Yeah, no. There's nothing unfair about excluding pedophiles. They're not oppressed in any way, shape or form. They're oppressors. Their entire identity is based around sexualizing children. I refuse to buy into the 'pedoing is a sexuality just like homosexuality!" narrative pedos peddle on reddit. It's not true.

Seriously, fuck anyone that identifies as a pedo and then complains about being excluded.

Also, talking out against pedo leftists got me stalked and doxxed on reddit and they started a malicious campaign to brand me as a pedo and email people I work with telling them I'm a pedo. All for daring to say that pedos are fucked. So double fuck them.

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zorblax wrote

if someone close to you said they had dreams about raping children, how would you react?

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ziq wrote

I'd ask them if they're a pedophile.

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[deleted] wrote

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zorblax wrote

Did you know many pedophiles are adamantly against having sex with kids, and are extremely ashamed of their urges? The same could be applied to a whole range of people with rape fantasies or psychopathy or any other fucked-upedness.

And, if there is not a "pedophile mind", what is it that gives people those urges? I agree it's not a disability, but it's also wrong to vilify people for something they can't exactly control.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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leftous OP wrote

Really well put. I agree reducing pedophilia to a simple "sexual preference" really neglects the harm and damage it does.

Pedophiles are people who fetishize innocence and are sexually excited by rape (which is what sex with a child entails). We call out the fetishization of minorities, trans people, etc - this is no different and far more disturbing. :/

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zorblax wrote (edited )

did you know that somebody who feels more disgust and shame than actual pleasure at the thought of having sex with a child may not medically count as a pedophile anyhow?

does it matter? They'd still be labelled a pedophile by almost anyone you meet.

look if it's not a disability then it's not ableist to hate people who want to fuck kids, as you insinuated

it's not uncommon to see ableist language used in that context.

you're kind of stumbling into psychological debates you have no idea about here

Actually I don't think the exact medical/psychological definition of pedophilia or psychopathy or what-have-you is very important to this debate. What's important is that someone who does nothing wrong to anybody can still considered evil because of something that goes on in their heads, and in particular something that they have no conscious control over.

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zod wrote (edited )

Are you talking from personal experience? Are you a pedophile? How do you know they have no control over their child rape fetish?

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zorblax wrote

no, but if you know what lainchan is I've been a regular for years and I was there when the whole pedo thing happened.

I've met the whole range, from pedos who say they've raped kids before, to pedos who say they avoid being around kids and read 'loli porn'(which is basically hentai sexualizing children) to get off.

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zod wrote

I don't know what that is and I'm not going to go looking for a site that caters to child rapists. How can you stand to hang out with those people?

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zorblax wrote

"caters to child rapists" is a stretch, considering that the whole "pedo thing" was that they were all(eventually) banned for talking about it on the website.

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zod wrote (edited )

So why did your discussions with admitted child rapists on that chan site lead to you feeling the need to defend pedophiles here?

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zorblax wrote

because I think it's a thing that people don't think about often enough.

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zod wrote

I'm so confused.

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zorblax wrote

I'm just trying to challenge peoples' viewpoints. My own views are usually pretty vague.

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ziq wrote

Normalizing child rape fetishes isn't challenging, it's repulsive.

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zorblax wrote

I don't think it's normal. I think it's a severe aberration.

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ziq wrote

Then why are you saying we should include them more in our circles and why are you spreading the myth that they hold no responsibility for their depraved and dangerous fetish because "they can't help it"?

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zorblax wrote

Then why are you saying we should include them more in our circles

Go and re-read my comment. These people exist, they will always exist in some form or another, and I think it's wrong to hate them for being the way they are rather than for any actions they have done.

the myth

are you sure it's a myth?

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ziq wrote

Yes I'm sure pedos are responsible for partaking in their fetish.

I wish people wouldn't spend all that energy normalizing and defending pedos on the internet and then claim they're only 'challenging' us. It would be a lot easier to communicate if you dropped the facade of doublespeak and misdirection and engaged honestly.

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zorblax wrote

Yes I'm sure pedos are responsible for partaking in their fetish.

partaking is different from having. That's what I'm talking about. Obviously they're responsible for raping kids.

It would be a lot easier to communicate if you dropped the facade of doublespeak and misdirection and engaged honestly.

I literally do not know how to please you.

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ziq wrote

Engaging in fantasies and viewing pornography is also partaking.

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zorblax wrote

I agree that viewing physical child pornography is on the same level as rape. But I don't think having fantasies is wronging anybody.

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ziq wrote

All pornography, including lolicon. Allowing yourself to entertain harmful fantasies of raping children furthers the sexualization of children in society and the abuse of children both physically and mentally. Children are not sex objects. They are not masturbation fodder. Sexualizing them IS NOT harmless.

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zorblax wrote

See, this is what I don't get. What is harmful about it? Sure it's disgusting, it's taboo, it obviously is not normal and shouldn't be treated as such. But what is harmful about it? Who does it harm?

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mofongo wrote

It's not something that would, it's something that will.

I have three opinions regarding pedophilia/acs. The first being that is necessary to protect children from harm and those that would harm them. It's impossible to know who is just waiting for the opportunity to satisfy their desires and its very idealistic to expect for everyone to have full control of their urges. In many cases of child abuse that I have read and heard, the opportunity to be alone with a child was all that was needed, be it a child under their care, younger family members, their own children. When that's not possible For a few dollars, you can go to any third world country and pay cheaply for a child prostitute. Additionally, normalizing pedophilia because is not abuse opens the door to circumstances like "it's ok to leave children with this person, they're a pedophile not an abuser" which will put children at risk as explained above.

The second part is that desire to satisfy these urges lead to the creation of child pornography, drawn or otherwise. In Japan there has been an increase in child rape, and while a casual relationship is hard to prove there's no doubt that their societies casual acceptance of sexualization of children plays a role.

The third part is that pedophile should receive psychological assistance in order to help them better resist their urges and to not put themselves in situations where they could succumb to them. However this online shit show of defending pedos is unproductive to this third part because it normalizes their feelings (and back to beginning).

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ziq wrote (edited )

It harms children. I feel like you're not reading beyond the first sentence of my replies.

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zorblax wrote (edited )

how does it harm children? I've read everything you've written multiple times.

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leftous OP wrote

Would you call nazis sitting around promoting and fantasizing about killing Jews, or the if the KKK were fantasizing about killing blacks, making cartoons about it, "harmless"?

You have to realize that sexualizing children is violence. And not just against any group - but literally the most vulnerable, innocent, and defenseless group. It is not harmless.

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zorblax wrote

I'd call that violence, sure.

I'd call participating in a subculture that sexualizes children violence, sure.

But I wouldn't call having a fetish about child rape to be violence, and I'd call it pedophilia.

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leftous OP wrote

So you agree that lolicon and the associated subculture is violent and harmful.

But you don't consider a fetish to commit violence and cause harm (also known as "pedophilia") to be harmful?

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zorblax wrote

yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

More importantly I don't think it's right to hate someone just for being fucked in the head. They have to do something, like participate in pedophile subculture or embrace their identity as a pedophile or at the worst actually act on their fetish, to be worthy of hate, in my view.

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leftous OP wrote

So if someone said they had a sexual fetish of chopping your head off, decapitating skulls turn them on. You'd say "Hey, at least you haven't chopped my head off yet!" and tell them it's all good?

The reality is it is harmful when someone is driven to violence, no matter how you dress it up. Whether or not you hate someone for being harmful, or try to help them to challenge and destroy these harmful impulses, is an entirely different question.

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zorblax wrote (edited )

So if someone said they had a sexual fetish of chopping your head off, decapitating skulls turn them on. You'd say "Hey, at least you haven't chopped my head off yet!" and tell them it's all good?

well, yeah, but I get what you mean.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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zorblax wrote (edited )

because I don't think it's worth responding to. If it's not pedophilia it's some other disgusting thing. It's absolutely absurd to think that you can tweak everything just right so that everyone is mentally sound and nobody is internally vile.

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[deleted] wrote

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zorblax wrote (edited )

I dunno. Keep going until everyone gets bored? I think it's an interesting conversation.

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[deleted] wrote

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zorblax wrote

Of course! I'm learning from this conversation as I go. With a subject like this, in a format like this, the hard part is getting points across clearly, which I think has been the point of this entire comment thread.

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[deleted] wrote

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zorblax wrote

maybe. But I think that people like this person, who it's not hard to believe exist, should also not be treated unfairly.

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ziq wrote

Maybe defend people that are into lynching?

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[deleted] wrote

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zorblax wrote

How about a thought experiment: if someone had extremely vivid thoughts of murdering everyone they'd ever met, for their entire life, but never acted on them and were in fact very normal people outwardly, are they bad people? Do they deserve to be feared?

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[deleted] wrote

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zorblax wrote

How can you judge someone for their conscious experience and not their actions?

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[deleted] wrote

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zorblax wrote

I can understand how, a posteriori, they're pretty obviously linked.

But it's obviously incredibly wrong to punish someone before they've done anything.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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zorblax wrote

when did punishment become a part of the conversation?

It was always? Or am I totally missing something

would you negatively judge somebody who professes racist beliefs without ever "acting on" them?

beliefs can be changed without intensive therapy. Pedophilia, or psychopathy, or <insert something else awful here> is part of a person and it takes more than an illuminating conversation to change it.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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zorblax wrote

what your opinion be of somebody who doesn't even bother to try because they like themselves that way?

I'd obviously hate them.

I've only met one pedophile I had any respect for. He really didn't like that part of himself, and tried to suppress it. He got a lot of shit when he told people about it. He's really the only reason I made this comment in the first place, because I know people like him exist and I think they're treated unfairly.

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