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Tequila_Wolf wrote (edited )

Not a direct answer to your question, but I've been thinking a fair bit about my friends in Cape Town who have been facing the water crisis there. For those of you who don't know, a cursory glance around f/Climate_Changed will get you roughly up to date.

There's one other thing about Cape Town (on top of the intensive racism and all the usual capitalism and postcolonial baggage) that I learned recently that just fucking hurts me. All of Cape Town's sewerage goes untreated into the ocean.

How alienated do you have to be from the things you affect for this to be something that is ultimately accepted by people living there? It's only cities, so far as I know, that create this kind of alienation, where people are so disconnected from the sources of their food and water, and from the waste that they expel in all its forms. (Obviously Cape Town is a complex place ridden with problems of which this is only one. I don't mean to imply either that we should lay responsibility on most Capetonians for being overwhelmed with this world that they can't begin to deal with this). And who knows how many other cities do the same as Cape Town.

I'd love if somebody posted a good anti-civilisation article on the topic of how cities alienate us from what we affect. It'd be great grounds for further conversation.

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happy wrote

This is my westernized view and I don't know how it would hold up in the global south, but I don't think it is living in the city that creates the alienation, but it is living in civilization and capitalism that creates the alienation. People living in small towns aren't going to care about their waste either because it is exported out of town.

I think in a post-civ (not anprim) society the city has the potential to be something good because of the integration of different ideas, cultures, and people that prevent bigotry and further conflict. Even anarcho-primitives acknowledge that primitive societies went into conflict with each other and I think that in creating these ideal utopias avoiding conflict is important.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote (edited )

You're right - I think I was thinking more along the lines of how this alienation from what we affect is necessitated by cities and not so much in towns. And how it seems a more totalising alienation in cities than towns, but I might be wrong there.
Where I'm from there's possibly a much sharper divide between urban and rural with relatively not so much by way of small towns. Not sure.

but it is living in civilization and capitalism

I think civilisation is characterised in part by cities, so we're possibly on board there, and I of course agree that capitalism is alienating.

I was not thinking about anarcho-primitivists here, but non-primitivist anti-civilisation critiques. I'm still figuring out what post-civ is.

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happy wrote

From what I understand post-civ is non-primitivist while still being anti-civilization. Life after civilization has crumbled.

Post-Civ! is a good primer. Here for a more in-depth look.

I think I would define civilization as the idea of advancement for the sake of advancement. Similar to capitalism being growth for the sake of growth, but civilization will still have a desire to advance itself. Transhumanism and space communism as examples.