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rattledlove1139 wrote (edited )

I say this before so maybe sound like record but i do not know if pain is the best metric for choosing veganism because studies on animals pain and emotion in general still fairly new, and same for plant life - maybe things (types of animal or plant) we thought can't feel pain actually DO just in whole unique way that we do not have capacity understand. And still at point where human workers involved, who also definitely feel pain whether slaughter or pick or transport. But not possible to live very long when just eat nothing so some point need decide what to eat even if know this causes pain

Sorry not have answer on sustainability, sustainable food is kind of hard to know sometimes because food popularity = food demand = usually more harmful methods and production, and "sustainable" probably does not count measures like transport and package/display.
But i guess whether you should depends on circumstance (missing nutrients? difficulty access food? how YOU feel?) and if this is best solution or not. Maybe... Maybe not

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stagn OP wrote

I dont agree with the argument that "even carrots suffer" devouring a freshly harvested carrot is not the same thing as Kill with bites a calf who writhes screams and bleeds. Being able to choose what to eat, I still have to understand how to minimize the suffering caused by my diet.

And I would like to understand to what extent the bivalves suffer, assuming that I am at sea and I find some clams, does it make sense to eat them or am I just causing useless suffering? And if I don't eat the clams "so as not to make them suffer" what's the point of squashing hundreds of insects (which suffer as much or more than the clams) on the windshield of the car while I go to buy some bread that has caused the death of countless insects and animals anyway? (I don't drive and I never use the car, I just gave an example to give you an idea)

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rattledlove1139 wrote

I do not think necessarily the actual plant "body" we eat feels pain but there is no saying for sure yet that actual plant can not feel any pain. Plants move and communicate too, just not in ways that we or other animals relate with. If that is true then what else?

I am not sure what you ask, it feels like you have already come to conclusion all things to eat will create suffering. Even you say (which is true) about insect killers and machine accidents. And as i say human workers will hurt from much of production too. There is trauma and physical pain in force jobs, whether slaughter or harvest crop or transport, because this how majority of job system and food system exists right now: horrible cruel conditions. Those pains different but all still happen.

But what is useless about feeding self? All animals want to, try very hardest to... this is how life exist at all. It is OK to think and make choices with human mind but at some point there can be too much worry. If you want, do. If you don't want, don't. Metrics of pain and suffering not easy to see from outside either, and i still think should not be main base for veganism. That is road to unhealthy obsession because so much cruelty in every realm of food production.

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Bezotcovschina wrote

And still at point where human workers involved, who also definitely feel pain whether slaughter or pick or transport.

I think, on a topic about veganism, the suffering of human workers is the least important, miserable thing

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rattledlove1139 wrote

I do not understand what mean

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Bezotcovschina wrote

I wanted to say that, in my opinion, no suffering of human workers even comparable to the suffering of animals being borne, living and dying in a state of constant torture, so it shouldn't ever be a matter on a topic about veganism

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rattledlove1139 wrote

I do not know if really agree irrelevant, suffering is not "better" just because have some understanding in situation, and should care for affected humans too. Even relief human workers may get do not negate how much suffer in rest of that time.
Whole food and job system need to change, until bigger and better changes set in there is suffering all over. Unless can 100% provide for self but that is not really viable position right now for almost everyone.
I have my goals too (maybe when less tired i will talk more about my wishes for how things could be) but right now need to focus on eating disorder first. So unfortunately for me goals DO need wait. I wish could just say "I caused no suffering" but regardless choice I can not, I make peace with that

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moonlune wrote

because studies on animals pain and emotion in general still fairly new

There's no need for studies, it's pretty obvious that animals feel pain and plants don't, you just don't want to look at the facts. And if you've suddenly become a science worshipper, well there actually are studies.

And still at point where human workers involved, who also definitely feel pain whether slaughter or pick or transport.

Workers get PTSD working at slaughterhouses. They don't get PTSD picking vegetables. Again, you're just giving yourself excuses.

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rattledlove1139 wrote

There is no need be hostile. I do not even say veganism useless or anything I only say there is more than look at "who suffers" because there is suffering all over.

I am not science worshipper I just state we don't know everything. Plant communication and intricacies is not something that anyone fully understand yet, just because not hear plants scream do not mean no pain. I do not always scream or react to pain, does NOT mean i do not feel it.

People do get PTSD when set to work in abusive conditions which lots of fields are as well. People forced to work in near deadly heat and worse is we do not hear about most this because "illegal immigrants" do not have right to report anything about their abuses in "official manner". It is more than just "kill is trauma, pick is not" - inherently yes killing is much more trauma than picking. But conditions around harvest also VERY important remember.

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moonlune wrote

You don't know everything, k whatever. But on this topic, I know and I tell you you're wrong.

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256 wrote (edited )

There is no need be hostile.

The Militant Vegan discourse.

there is suffering all over.

Same energy as 'Striking is bad, because suffering exists', following that would render any resistance to human climate impacts baseless - an ideology of trauma reproduction.

plant suffering (science)

The questioned existence of plant suffering does not matter for the question of ethical consideration for non-human animals. Killing a cow, because legumes might feel suffering too, does not compute.

perpetrator's suffering

I see a pattern here: Others' suffering does not make producing intentional, unnecessary and avoidable suffering ethical. It is still immoral to kill a boar for fun when you live in an autonomous anarchist space.

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rattledlove1139 wrote

I do not understand what that means. Name calling and saying i make excuses (I am living with eating disorder and i should not need say this just so anyone take seriously) is hostile. It would be hostile if i did that too.

Not sure people understand what i say when i bring up possible plant suffering. I say that means suffering is not best measure to decide veganism because at some point may be found true that all life we eat suffers, not just animals. Even without that possibility, human workers suffer too, in lots of harvest situations are inhumane conditions preying on vulnerable people. Therefore to make no suffering in food choices would need to not eat at all which is not really productive diet, because suffering baked into system. That is ALL i say and not understand why people keep thinking i say things I do not!

I think more about earth health and opportunity. And being grateful for whatever food is available, for all life (plant, animal, human) that give something up so i could eat another day. i do not have choice just become vegan but I want to be able eat thoughtfully and support world where others do same, eating much less or no animal product. I have not once say suffer is good ethical or veganism is useless just that this one way of measuring is faulty.

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