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mabuhayangrebolusyon wrote (edited )

To regard the state as an instrument of oppression without noting who's oppression is to have a liberal, idealist conception of the state that obscures class relations.

What is your issue with current revolutionary communist movements in the poorest parts of the world? Would you like to take it up with the people involved with them?

Certainly Marx was wrong on many aspects - but what issue do you take with the millions upon millions of people who were and are involved in genuine communist revolutionary movements and benefit from them? Why don't you go pose this question to them? Why do you seek to limit communism to a movement of leaders, rather than a movement of people? Why do you outright ignore the mass element and only bring it up with false concern?

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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mabuhayangrebolusyon wrote

Oppression has a class character. Do you oppose oppression of the landlords, of the capitalists, of the reactionaries?

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Defasher wrote

Self defense isn't oppression, fam.

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mabuhayangrebolusyon wrote

Self defense implies there is someone who would seek to attack you and will not relent - call it what you like, but all the same it constitutes a shift in power relations - no longer can the attacker assert their dominance as an equal or greater force has hit back at them.

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Defasher wrote (edited )

Your argument makes no sense and seems to be an attempt to confuse the issue. Rulers are good because landlords are bad? No.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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mabuhayangrebolusyon wrote

Fascism is just as bad as anti-fascism, anarchism is just as bad as capitalism, really the only thing left for you to do is become a liberal and wallow in a sense of negative peace. At least then you will have the moral high ground and never have to oppress anyone.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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mabuhayangrebolusyon wrote

Are you an anarchist who has never experienced genuine oppression or are you a petit-bourgeois liberal who is afraid of the rule of the poorest sections of society over the rest

What respect should i have for someone who doesn't respect my humanity. Why should i give a fuck about some cop who kills people in my community, who makes them homeless, who enforces the oppression of private property, of capital? Why should i care about the wellbeing of a slumlord who charges me extortionate rates and doesn't care if i'm homeless or not?

Seriously, what the fuck are you fighting if not against oppression and oppressors. Who are you fighting for. What are you doing in concrete terms. Who the fuck are you helping with this rhetoric of "please consider the feelings of the nazis, the landlords, the police and the bosses.".

Anarchists, why are you counter-revolutionaries?

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Defasher wrote (edited )

So many strawmen. Anarchists are on the front lines dealing with cops, slumlords and fascists everyday. You lot just want the cops to work for your party. And every time anarchists lead a revolution, MLs teamed up with fascists to murder us... because you'd rather have a fascist state than no state.

Don't accuse anarchists of supporting the police, it's ludicrous.

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mabuhayangrebolusyon wrote (edited )

And so are communists. You haven't said anything of what you make of existing revolutionary movements lead by communists, such as in the Philippines or in India, or in Turkey. Instead you wish to pursue a point about why communists "want to be ruled" just like "fascists, monarchists, conservatives" etc. I do not dispute that anarchists do good work, and i hate ML revisionists who claim china to be "socialist", Cuba as "socialist", Venezuela "socialist" Norway "socialist" etc etc, who abhor all criticism of Stalin, of the past, who disregard the imperialist ambitions of Russia and China.

Ultimately I like anarchists more than most MLs, but I don't have much interest in being ruled, i'm more interested in liberation and making it so that me and people around me don't have to struggle to survive, and that the world doesn't burn, that the entire population of the world doesn't drown, die in nuclear war, etc etc.

I do apologize if i got annoyed, engaged in personal attacks - but it's rather tiring seeing these arguments again and again while hardly seeing any engagement with the real work done by ordinary communists, who are actually real genuine people and not people too ignorant to see that they are being ruled, or whatever.

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mofongo wrote

Revolutions lead by communists are counter-revolutionary by definition. The revolution can only come by working class action to actually be communist, one could even argue that you don't need communists to achieve communism.

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Defasher wrote (edited )

What do you mean by 'communist'? Anarchists are communists too, last I checked. And anarchism predates Marxism.

I'm from Catalonia. If you want to know what I think of MLs, ask any of the anarchists MLs helped the fascists murder to destroy our revolutionary stateless society. Oh, wait...

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mabuhayangrebolusyon wrote

What do you think of existing revolutionary movements. I do not care what you think of what happened in the past. Tell me what you think of the work done by Maoists in the philippines. Simple question.

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Defasher wrote (edited )

Idk enough about them to answer. Are they trying to seize the state and install themselves as rulers, creating a repeat of the USSR? What are their goals?

Usually the revolution is fought by genuine communists and then they're all killed by bourgie opportunists like Lenin who use the revolution to give themselves power.

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mabuhayangrebolusyon wrote (edited )

Here we go :)

They want to end imperialist rule over the Philippines, they want to overthrow and put an end to semi-feudal semi-colonial rule, they want to build the people's revolutionary army, people's self defense, to implement agrarian reform, to ensure sustainability, to put an end to deforestation, pollution, etc - to ensure self-determination for oppressed nations, to advance the revolutionary emancipation of women, LGBT folks, etc etc, to build schools, hospitals, to end homelessness, you know, that sort of stuff :)

The documentaries i linked at the end of my second post show it best, lol. Let me link them again ( you will need to enable subtitles for Buhay Komunista, the first link )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zgs6y8JS98

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBpGU9ykl9c

If you do not want to watch documentaries, it is also outlined here https://www.reddit.com/r/RevPH/wiki/index and you can ask people on that subreddit, many of whom are involved in the movement on the ground, what they do, what they are fighting for, etc. I assure you none of them are interested in murdering anarchists or teaming up with fascists.

Also if you look here http://www.redspark.nu/en/category/peoples-war/philippines/ there is a lot of news articles from the party and organizations associated with it, and on the actions carried out by the party, by the NPA (New Peoples Army), the NDFP (National Democratic Front of the Philippines), and by mass organizations (feminist orgs, workers orgs, farmers orgs, student orgs, christians for national liberation orgs, etc etc )

Also of special note is that most if not all genuine modern communist movements, the leader isn't really in any prominent position in the media or has any real special authority, and they change often and in the philippines in particular here there's no personality cults, as far as i know. Nor india or turkey. The party there in the philippines has split and reconstituted itself multiple times over issues of opportunism and counter-revolution - which certainly shows it is messy, yes, as is class struggle and as is life, but shows genuine commitment to revolution also that it has not degenerated into a counter-revolutionary party