Submitted by halfway_prince in AskRaddle

u/Kinshavo's post reminded me that this is something that's been nagging at me for a while. Like most folks, I find that post objectively funny but I keep thinking there's something about the way we talk about gentrification that does obfuscate any productive dialogue about how to minimize the impact of gentrification.

Like most young folks moving to Western cities can be accused of gentrification of some kind, but in the U.S. in particular it seems like the word is thrown around rampantly and has almost lost any meaning when describing individual actions or is used as a critique of individuals. Like I know what on the system scale gentrification is (something something displacement of original residents through rent and other cost of living increases), but what do people mean when they say, "hey these folks are gentrifiers!" To be honest, I've never really seen a conversation get past this, mostly because people acknowledge to a certain extent they are part of the system level process of gentrification. What i see lacking from any conversation is a clear description of how NOT to gentrify, but to still move to an area where you can have a job and afford rent.

Obviously there's the uber basic shit like don't shop at whole foods, don't buy expensive coffee from the shop that just opened up and like get to know your neighbors etc.

But like, has anyone actually figured out how to do that? Any resources on best practices?

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lettuceLeafer wrote

I'd say if you move to a poor area and rent an apartment you are inherently gentrifying. A bug part of gentrifying is making property value go up. By moving to an area and buying stuff you inherently gentrify.

I don't think it's really possible to not gentrify if you move to an area to live a normie lifestyle of renting, and having a middle class job.

To not gentrify is to move to areas like suburbs or already rich areas or live a life that makes property value go down. Homeless, drug dealer ect.

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halfway_prince OP wrote (edited )

I'd say if you move to a poor area and rent an apartment you are inherently gentrifying. A bug part of gentrifying is making property value go up. By moving to an area and buying stuff you inherently gentrify.

I don't think it's really possible to not gentrify if you move to an area to live a normie lifestyle of renting, and having a middle class job.

Only replying because i think this is a good example of where I think these conversations are stuck and discussing gentrification becomes kind of useless. I'm too tired of having this conversation over and over again to engage at this point.

Edit: to clarify i think you're right, i just really want the conversation to get past this step. Like dare i say do we have any "harm reduction" approaches to gentrification? Like fuck, i have a job in a city and don't want a 2 hour commute from the burbs and the only place i can afford is in a neighborhood that i'm probably gentrifying?? Also fuck the burbs i'd literally go fucking crazy living there?? It's what you complain about all the time leafer!! There just has to be more nuance to this discussion than "don't"

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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halfway_prince OP wrote

mhm ya vandalism is an interesting one...the whole "graffiti fights gentrification thing" I've heard a lot, but interested in whether anyone's dived deeper into that ? Like have there been any more comprehensive writings? Anarcho Blackness by Marquis Bey dives a little into the idea of "unsafe neighborhoods" but was wondering if there's anything more.

The arson one is particularly funny cuz part of the motivation for this post was reading this article about how some people are speculating that arson (or at least the end product) is being used as a force for gentrification in San Francisco in the U.S.

But ya tenants organizing seems to be a pretty classic example. Just not sure where to start with that. Would love any resources about that.

Community land trusts are something i'm involved with but more deals with houseless encampments since there's more energy and activism and community than in most housed neighborhoods.

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lettuceLeafer wrote

Oh you could be loud at around bedtime or just in general. Loud music shouting matches with friends, big parties ect.

Also doing some pro littering praxis is good.

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[deleted] wrote

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lettuceLeafer wrote

It might be a bit liberal in reasoning but I think littering is actually preferable to taking it to a dump.

Using traditional garbage services is still horrible for the environment plus it means people don't really have to be conscious about how trash is hatful to our own lives.

By littering people myself included have to live with the consequences of our consumption. Sure it's bad just like garbage but one allows you to not acknowledge the harm you cause while littering makes you face the reality of your actions consistently.

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lettuceLeafer wrote

Eh, I think this like many things is just something that is going to cause harm inherently to exist. By itself gentrification isn't actually bad as it makes things more valuable which is good. It's more bad due to people being largely poor in society.

I think gentrification is just something that will happen like, garbage, pollution, funding government imperialism and paying for capitalist abuse of others ect. It doesn't make someone a bad person. It's just something that happens. Be cognizant of the harm but like that's life you know.

I think inherently as gentrification is mostly bad due to people being poor and having to pay for essential to live anarchist action that provides for basic needs is harm reduction for gentrification. Prob more effective than littering campground or shooting guns. Addressing why gentrification is harmful to a community rather than minimizing the damage is a method of solution I like better

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flingwingin wrote (edited )

i feel like you miss a whole category between "middle class job and living the normie life style" and "homeless, drug dealer, etc."

like just not shopping at target and starbucks and being oblivious to the cost of things (especially if you have to... there's a whole world between "middle class job" and drug dealer) is basically enough to not be causing a problem. I get that in theory demand drives up prices, but at the same time, gentrification is not just about demand, it's a lifestyle thing. (anyways i agree in theory tho that you should make property values go down, but the point isnt to make it actually shittier for everyone, just to drive out big businesses and exploitative landlords (but mostly speculators and that nonsense)... fuck actually making a neighborhood shitty by attracting drug addicts and thinking you're helping because it's anti-gentrification)

Oh yeah also gentrification has a lot to do with city planning and zoning too. sometimes its really not even up to people living there, they might just be forced to move when their houses are all scheduled for demolition to make way for an artificial beach or a new baseball stadium or freeway or something. This demand is driven by the actual bougies. Fight the developers and speculators. And if the area gets under-valued enough they might just think it's free game to take over for another purpose and give people way less than what it's worth. idk tho. basically just be nice to ppl and bad to corps idk. Anyways i'm a homeless and i don't think i really hurt property values at all right now. There's actually a huge homeless village right by some of the richest houses, and they steal hella shit and sell and do all kinds of drugs, but it doesnt seem to hurt things at all.....

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Tequilx_Wolf wrote (edited )

One text I enjoyed was the sidebar resource in f/Gentrification, worth a read to think through these things.

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Tequilx_Wolf wrote (edited )

Also, in relation to buying land/housing; ideally doing that meaningfully together with indigenous people and sharing resources seems a good way to go about that.

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loukanikos wrote

Ok, I don't want to trivialize this question but theoretically, in contemporary capitalism if you are moving somewhere you can afford you are most likely contributing to gentrification. Personally I don't think there is any way to avoid this. So long as we have monetary system where purchasing power parity is unequal, this will remain a problem. I guess there can also be a mindset that folks shouldn't really move around from place to place as that contributes to this problem as well but I struggle to develop a cohesive stance around that. I think there are a lot of bad faith takes out there around this topic that shut down organizing and general quality of life improvement. (a real life example: some folks being against having trees planted on their block by an environmental non-profit b/c they that is perceived to be a "rich neighborhood" type of thing that will likely drive up property prices)

I think the more important thing to focus on is being a member of the community. If you are gentrifying, are you just coming in and bringing your own culture/lifestyle with you? Or are you participating as a member of the community? Obviously community participation is difficult idea to conceptualize or define broadly but for me its a "know it when you see it" sort of thing.

As a general guideline: I think it's wasteful to obsess about this problem. Just do the best you can to leave things better than you found them. You may be better off than most of the folks in the area you are moving but lets be honest, unless you are a full-on oligarch, you probably have very little control over that, and it is part of why we are forced to move around to satisfy capital and its labor organization. Moving into a rich neighborhood is an option but its potentially going to harm your family's quality of life. This is all a feature of the system; its not an accident.

What you can do is be a good human, contribute to anarchy in the neighborhood™️, and try to celebrate and patronize the aspects of the community that you value. If you truly become a member of the community it will almost certainly offset whatever harm has been caused by bringing your outsized purchasing power to the area.

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lemon_grass wrote

In NYC at least, gentrification also includes the replacement of immigrant cultures with generic white middle class shit, which unfortunately includes a lot of 'leftist' things. People hate that.

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AnarchoDoom wrote

Obviously there's the uber basic shit like don't shop at whole foods, don't buy expensive coffee from the shop that just opened up and like get to know your neighbors etc.

But like, has anyone actually figured out how to do that? Any resources on best practices?

In the name of...

How's this so hard to figure out?

Just loot or loiter these places, and quit renting in these looked-after neighborhoods. Like if you're from a well-off background rather consider renting in some already-gentrified hoods. And if you wanna "help the poor" with your resources do some FnBs or similar activities in poor hoods, and buy from struggling businesses... There's a hundred ways to do "harm reduction".

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halfway_prince OP wrote (edited )

Phrasing of that was bad, I mostly meant how to the last one - get to know neighbors - and the overall sentiment of engaging with community in a more authentic way. Obviously not shopping at those places is easy. But it's an entirely different thing to avoid the explicitly problematic practices and proactively engaging with community building.

I don't want to get to defensive, but guess it's important to contextualize to my question by saying I straight up do all the shit you just listed. I'm heavily involved in FNB in my area, go to local bodega's for mostly anything that I buy, am involved in a variety of mutual aid groups including free stores and narcan distribution, work in my community garden, document cops when they're arresting people over in our neighborhood, etc.

Part of the reason I'm asking this question is because I wanted to hear if there's anything else people are doing because doing the basic shit that commonly gets thrown around in conversation - what you just said i've heard from a thousand "anarchists" a thousand time - like straight up isn't enough. I just really hoped, and to be fair received buried in some of the comments on this post, was to get some genuinely more thought out and interesting recommendations. that aren't just regurgitation of what gets thrown around in these circles more generally.

I tried to preface this post by saying, "bruh we've all heard the same shit about FNB, community engagement, etc. etc etc.", but that's all the conversation ever is. I'm sorry if the wording of my post wasn't great, but i feel like shit just sounds like an echo chamber when gentrification gets brought up and we need to remove some of the stigma around talking about it.

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halfway_prince OP wrote

Even when I said

What i see lacking from any conversation is a clear description of how NOT to gentrify, but to still move to an area where you can have a job and afford rent.

The top posts are still people just saying "don't move there". Like LOL, sick y'all lets just all go colonize some indigenous land like that's better? Many people are born fucking gentrifiers and everywhere we go we're outsiders. Like let's acknowledge that this argument is basically as productive as "Just say NO to drugs", and move past that and talk about how do we minimize negative impact.

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flingwingin wrote

I read this cool book a while ago (shoutout to Cadence Weapon for blogging about it) called Gentrification of the Mind. Basically the author witnessed gentrification first hand and had some stuff to say. Mostly her recommendations (or just inverting what she is sad about how recent transplants act) are just that people make connections, act like you really live there, and don't all go shop in the cookie cutter big box stores or cafe chains and shit, and get mad about bad conditions in your apartment or rent hikes. Because the worst thing isn't acting like you belong there when you "don't" (depends on the area, but lots of people in gentrifying areas were immigrants or were themselves from somewhere else), it's that you treat the place as if it's just any other place, and you bring all your privilege and shit with you (money), instead of actually being a part of the place (e.g. a college student or blogger who really isnt tied to the local economy, and who wants a copy-pasted "city" experience).

In the past lots of people flocked to big cities, but didn't gentrify it... it's cause they had solidarity basically, and not much money. Thats pretty much it.

(so also don't think of gentrification as natives vs transplants - its poor vs rich, or community vs alienated person with an already gentrified mindset)

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