Submitted by 6u5cbz14R8_4z36Aq7Y22 in AskRaddle (edited )

Hi Raddle,

For most of my life I've felt a general apathy for politics. At the very least I found/find it hard to take the choice of voting for an unrepresentative gaggle of candidates every 4 years seriously. This was I think also spurred on by an unexplained (i.e not based on any formal discussion or reading) distaste for authority, i.e any and all assaults on the will, e.g the heavy hand of the state. As my academic and professional life have led me elsewhere, such feelings have for the most part been left unexamined and thus unabated.

Recently though - like most - I've found myself with some time to spare so began exploring. From my limited understanding it seems - unsurprisingly - most of what I feel has been addressed by the Anarchist literature. To better my own understanding, how should I best parse through this?

I think in order to be productive it makes sense to list some questions that have arisen in my admittedly limited reading and hopefully get some recommendations from those with more experience. Apologies if this is 101 type stuff. I hope someone out there is willing to help.

  • In what ways is the state "banditry under the guise of law"? Put in Agorist terms, what are concrete examples of the state participating in grey/red markets?
  • How is the law enforced in a decentralised or non statist society? Put more generally, how is collective morality codified?
  • What literature is available discussing the value proposition of acquisition of wealth, entertainment, products etc. vs providing for ones basic needs (housing, food etc)? I have an inherit assumption the former is of greater value but I would like to delve deeper to understand why I think this. Historical accounts, qual/quant statistics would be helpful here.
  • How would one combat anarchist nihilism and is this even necessary? I.e how reasonable do you find this position?
  • How profound is the impact of the state on shaping our individual metaphysics? If so, how is that achieved? I am particularly interested in readings on this topic.

Thanks in advance for anyone taking the time to read and reply.

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catachresis wrote

I think these are all really good questions. I'll do my best to answer what I can, but I'm sure others will have more concise answers.

In what ways is the state "banditry under the guise of law"?

The state has cops.

How is the law enforced in a decentralised or non statist society? Put more generally, how is collective morality codified?

This implies there is a collective morality, but what is right for one person might be wrong to another. Anarchism, to me, is about working to remove the things that hold power over our lives. Violence arises when an individual or group's needs aren't being met. I think anarchism puts the onus on the individual to develop their own needs outside of the state, so we can work to strive without a state. Human's have been supported by states for thousands of years, which means thousands of years of unlearning.

What literature is available discussing the value proposition of acquisition of wealth...

Not sure about this because I have a hard time reading a lot. Marx perhaps?

How would one combat anarchist nihilism and is this even necessary?

I have a hard time with this too, but I think the general idea is that nihilism is supposed to set you free instead of alienating. I would like to learn more about this too.

How profound is the impact of the state on shaping our individual metaphysics?

I think I touched on this above. That's a big question that I'm not prepared to answer. I would say very profound. How does the state influence our metaphysics? The state's unconditional support and enforcement of capitalism paired with the inherent inability to escape the state impact everyone.

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6u5cbz14R8_4z36Aq7Y22 OP wrote

Hey, thanks so much for taking the time to reply.

This implies there is a collective morality, but what is right for one person might be wrong to another.

This is where things get murky for me. The nation state seems by and large built on the idea of moral objectivism (the extent to which this is informed by the collective I am unsure). As you rightly mention there is though the natural relativist counterpart to contend with. How does an Anarchist society reconcile the two?

I think the general idea is that nihilism is supposed to set you free instead of alienating.

Assuming living within state confines is a regrettably reality, what practical ways does Anarchism propose to achieve this freedom? I'm particularly interested in how to reconcile living externally from the state while presumably having to engage with it on occasion, albeit as little as possible. Apologies for the trite example but let's say your car is stolen or you're in need of medical attention etc. Is it the case of perfect not being the enemy of good?

That's a big question that I'm not prepared to answer.

Thanks for this, you rarely hear this these days :)

I'm very interested in this and in particular concrete examples. e.g institution x does y and thus persons born into such a reality are likely to believe/formulate a world view that is z.

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catachresis wrote (edited )

How does an Anarchist society reconcile the two?

I believe that an anarchist society as it is commonly implied is a Utopia as hierarchy can never be truly eliminated. Anarchism, to me, is about unlearning the objectivism that the state teaches and learning an individual morality. I have a belief that an individual's moralities are largely universal, however a lot of those morals go against the morality that the state imposes on us.

Is it the case of perfect not being the enemy of good?

I think so. I think pragmatism is stronger than dogmatism. There is no wrong or right way to do anything. There is only the way that you want to do things. I had a bike get stolen almost 2 years ago. I didn't report it to the police because the only thing that they would do about it is harass homeless camps. Instead I went to the homeless camps to see if anyone knew anything about it or could help. I didn't find my bike, but it felt so much better than relying on the state. Get medical attention if you need it. Health is important.

Have you read a lot of leftist literature? What have you read? What do you want to read?

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6u5cbz14R8_4z36Aq7Y22 OP wrote (edited )

I have a belief that an individual's moralities are largely universal.

I would agree with this but it's where this diverges I'm most interested. A good example is consumption of domesticated animals in Asia. I wonder how an Anarchist moral relativistic system might deal with a localised variant of this in practice. There needs to be some modicum of consensus no?

I had a bike get stolen almost 2 years ago. I didn't report it to the police because the only thing that they would do about it is harass homeless camps.

I appreciate you sharing your story. How would you say an older person might fair in the same situation? Perhaps they would be more fearful to ask around for information?

Have you read a lot of leftist literature? What have you read?

As I mentioned in my initial post my background isn't in political science and I've not made much time for reading in this area outside of my professional life, so it's limited. That said, a few that come to mind (although I'm not sure you would classify all as leftist literature):

  • An Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation - Jeremy Bentham
  • Manufacturing Consent - Noam Chomsky
  • Communist Manifesto (Forever ago, like every other university student auditing open classes)
  • An Agorist Primer - SEK 3. (in process)
  • The Society of the Spectacle - Guy Debord

What do you want to read?

  • Gil Elliot
    • The Twentieth Century Book of the Dead
  • Andrew Dallmeyer
    • Confessions of an English Opium-Eater
  • David Graeber
    • Debt: The First 5000 Years
  • Alex Haley
    • The Autobiography of Malcolm X
  • Thomas Paine
    • The Rights of Man
  • Søren Kierkegaard
    • Either/Or
  • Simone de Beauvoir
    • The Second Sex
  • Emma Goldman
    • Living My Life
  • Eric S. Raymond
    • The Cathedral and the Bazaar
  • john Zerzan
    • Against Civilization: Readings and Reflections
    • Future Primitive Revisited
    • Why Hope?: The Stand Against Civilization
  • Ursula K. Le Guin
    • The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia
  • Jared Diamond
    • Guns, germs, and Steel: the fates of human societies

Any other recommendations are welcome :)

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catachresis wrote

I would agree with this but it's where this diverges I'm most interested in.

I wish I could say more, but I haven't been able to fledge out my thoughts on it properly or find writings that conflate with my beliefs.

How would say an older person might fare in the same situation?

I think an older person would fair just fine. Don't do anything you don't feel comfortable doing, but don't let fear get in the way of accomplishing what you want.

Looks like a solid list. I'm also not that well read. I'm interested in reading Fredy Perlman's book Against His-story, Against Leviathan eventually. From what I understand he looks back at human history and the growth of civilization and the ways humans have fought back.

The recommendations other's have said in this thread look promising too.

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6u5cbz14R8_4z36Aq7Y22 OP wrote

I wish I could say more, but I haven't been able to fledge out my thoughts on it properly or find writings that conflate with my beliefs.

I appreciate your candour.

How would say an older person might fare in the same situation?

Solid advice thanks. Thanks too for the Perlman recommendation, I'll be sure to look that up :)

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zddy wrote (edited )

I don't have a whole lot to add other than that nihilism and anarchism go very well together. Like chocolate and peanut butter.

Read Aragorn!s essays on nihilism if you want a primer. Everything is available on the anarchist library (google it [not meant in a dismissive way, I'm just lazy and don't want to add a link]).

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6u5cbz14R8_4z36Aq7Y22 OP wrote

No worries, is it this one?

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zddy wrote

Yes! Thats it. Nihilism, IIRC, was actually around a little earlier than anarchism (as political thought) and influenced the anarchist movement.

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tequila_puppy_cannibal wrote

Bullet #1

My Dad used to drink with Eugene Hasenfus. Eugene, if he's still alive, resides in Amberg, Wisconsin. I don't know if he ever met Ollie North but Eugene knew how to use a parachute. Fuck the state but I will say that yellow crack is the best. That should suffice and is a big part of the Iran Contra fun we had back in the day. The CIA is doing much better with opiods and adarol these days; ya dig?

Bullet #2

When things get to be too much the killing begins. Political labels really don't matter that much; death will still be ubiquitous, anarchist society or not. I would rather kill you than house you and feed you while listening to your bullshit. No Prisons.

Bullet #3

OMG. Image sitting in your wonderful castle and starving or your castle being surround by starving people, dead bodies & etc. Maybe with tanks and people like me who desperately want to say hello. Like how we are today, basically.

Literature... um... Maybe The Stanford Study stuff will suffice. Do you like marshmallows?

Bullet #4

They want you to fight them. They are happy either way and then have a chance to take you with them. A good anarchist minds his/her own business and is helpful to others; especially those in need of anything. Nihilism takes care of itself naturally and is very easy to avoid. I kinda think they also only get laid by really, really weird people so it's something acquired vs. being a genetic trait.

Bullet #5

Super profound. For the Western world I blame it on Constantine seeing a cross in the clouds and winning and then having progeny. The Christian world story is awesome in scope along with all of the other modes of spirituality that have shaped my metaphysics. Theology is a fav of mine. It's really dangerous ground for trying to maintain sanity though. Beware that when you find truth in your life and try to put that out there very few people will understand and you probably will not be liked very much. Truth sayers are demonized. A real paradox man.

My Bullet #1

Vote with your feet.

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6u5cbz14R8_4z36Aq7Y22 OP wrote (edited )

This was a really entertaining/informative read, thanks for your reply. Apologies for any ignorance on my part, but I have a few questions.

The CIA is doing much better with opiods and adarol these days; ya dig?

I'm likely missing the joke but I assume you're referring to this?

Literature... um... Maybe The Stanford Study stuff will suffice. Do you like marshmallows?

Again, likely missing the joke. Is there a study? p.s I'm not into marshmallows, gelatine :/

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tequila_puppy_cannibal wrote

No I'm not referring to any one article. What's happening with Afghanistan's poppy crop is what I'm talking about. 75% of that crop is shipped directly to the Western powers. A great bulk of that lands in the USA. The CIA is very diversified in their funding approaches after the Iran Contra affair dragged their boy Col. Ollie North through the mud.

If I remember correctly, your question asked about any literature explaining "Value Proposition" Stanford did a study with little kids and marshmallows that had a lot to do with value and behavior IMO.

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6u5cbz14R8_4z36Aq7Y22 OP wrote

What's happening with Afghanistan's poppy crop is what I'm talking about.

Will do some reading, thanks.

Stanford did a study with little kids and marshmallows that had a lot to do with value and behavior IMO.

Ah yes, I think I know this one. This was the delayed gratification study in the 70's right?

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_caspar_ wrote

In what ways is the state "banditry under the guise of law"? Put in Agorist terms, what are concrete examples of the state participating in grey/red markets?

to me the legality/criminality distinction only matters in understanding that the modern state (self-legitimized through the mythology of the Hobbesian social contract) utilizes that distinction to uphold the facade of necessity for those who believe its mythology, and to violently control those who do not.

How is the law enforced in a decentralised or non statist society? Put more generally, how is collective morality codified?

Id like not to perpetuate society: the abstraction of various real people thought of as measurable units (subjects) making up a generalized mass,, ,,or law: the management of society (see above),,, or theorizing ways to reform either: continuing the nightmare. I also dont find morality liberating for similar reasons as society or law (if we are defining morality as a one-sized-fits-all way to determine decision making). I resort more to a context-based ethics particular to the moment.

What literature is available discussing the value proposition of acquisition of wealth, entertainment, products etc. vs providing for ones basic needs (housing, food etc)? I have an inherit assumption the former is of greater value but I would like to delve deeper to understand why I think this. Historical accounts, qual/quant statistics would be helpful here.

It's Crazy How Many Things Don't Exist

How would one combat anarchist nihilism and is this even necessary? I.e how reasonable do you find this position?

I see nihilism as the response to a cosmos indifferent to human beings. you can come across the effect of nihilism, and it can linger, but calling oneself a nihilist as something to be for, misunderstands nihilism. most everyone does combat nihilism with various beliefs, I included. but no, its not necessary, because it is outside of belief.

The show is over. The audience get up to leave their seats. Time to collect their coats and go home. They turn round...No more coats and no more home.” - Vasily Rozanov

How profound is the impact of the state on shaping our individual metaphysics? If so, how is that achieved? I am particularly interested in readings on this topic.

most profoundly through education and educated folks shaping anything in turn: from various spiritual idealisms, to the enlightenment values of humanism, reductionist materialism of the sciences, progressivist teleology, and so on. and often purposely conflicting or complementary. it is achieved through violent coercion of all kinds the moment you run up against the norms as a child. if you want lengthy what could be called foundational texts: The Unique and Its Own by Max Stirner and Against His-story, Against Leviathan! by Fredy Perlman. for something shorter: An Invitation to Desertion by Bellamy Fitzpatrick

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eta_milc wrote

read simulacra and simulation

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