Honest questions for individuals who are members of the AntiFa group
Submitted by conservative_raddle_fan in Antifa
I just wish to engage in some honest dialogue...
Let me tell you what I see as a longtime conservative who (begrudgingly) voted for Mr. Trump.
We see you wearing masks to hide your identities, clad all in black, and beating innocent people in the streets. Burning American flags. Throwing smoke grenades and molotovs at police officers just doing their jobs. Burning down our college campuses and destroying our cities. Hampering our businesses and our ability to earn a living. Scaring our children.
We see you terrorizing people who are exercising their constitutional rights to free assembly and free speech. Most of those anti-ANTIFA protesters? We are there because of the violence and destruction caused by THE ANTIFA GROUP. The counter protesters with the balls to stand up to you are defending ALL American's freedoms against a group of proud domestic terrorists.
This is what the ordinary American sees on TV.
We don't see working class heroes.
We don't see defenders of justice and liberty.
We see pure hooligans.
What makes you believe this is the right thing to do?
What is the end goal here? What do you hope to accomplish?
The way things are going, I can only see two outcomes. The violence escalating until you are officially labeled a domestic terrorist organization in all our states (and rightfully hunted down by the government), or people on both sides (as well as our police officers) start getting killed in some kind of urban war between violent commies and upstanding citizens. What is the plan then?
I'm not trying to attack anyone here. I just want to better understand what the prevailing ideology behind this is. Rather than go through lying MSM outlets, I'd rather ask at the source - what are your motives, what is your end goal, why do you hate America and our freedom?
Thank you and please don't delete this.
ziq wrote
Go bug someone who gives a shit what you think of them.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
This is the problem right here. If you don't care how you look to the average Joes, why should the average Joes support you and your ideology?
ziq wrote
Joe can fuck off too.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
This is why the left has no chance.
mofongo wrote
Over here, we're are against the left too. They don't go far enough.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote (edited )
How can you be against both the left and the right? Centrists?
ziq wrote (edited )
Yup. All of us. We love straddling that fence.
'Raddle' actually means 'absolute centre' in Bulgarian.
mofongo wrote (edited )
Both the left and right wish to maintain capitalism. The actions of the right, ultimately, function to concentrate capital to the top, to the bussiness owners where it should be. However, when too much goes to the top it creates crisis at the bottom. And average Joe ends up rebelling, or creating revolution.
The left, by providing hand outs like medicare and social security, gives Joe a sense of complacency that prevents them from rebelling.
To be continued...
continued...
I lost my train of thought, so I'll leave it like that.
raindropq wrote
víve la revolucion !
amongstclouds wrote
Pick up a book.
mofongo wrote
We're not a party or a fan club. Getting support or members are a non priority.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
Yet you all admit to voting for the dems when push comes to shove...
supernice wrote
If you actually read a book at some point in your life besides Winnie the Pooh, you'd have the sense enough to not say to an anarchist that they vote in elections.
mofongo wrote
A) I don't vote
B) I'm not American
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
Then you don't even care about politics.
DaisyDisaster wrote
Literally one of us has admitted to voting for an American Dem when they were in a liberal stage.
You play the "gotcha" card when someone votes then claim they don't care about politics when they don't? Have you ever made a logical connection in your life?
ziq wrote (edited )
Because you have to choose between red turd or blue turd to care.
GrimWillow wrote (edited )
We live in a surveillance state, where the oppressors hold the keys. The electronics are pretty advanced, does it not make sense to hide your identity from a corrupt state?
And what is their job? To violently oppress everyone into falling into place to be the labor livestock for the rich. The biggest thing holding this shit circus together is not "the love for money and success", it's the violence of the military and police. If you don't pay your rent to the people that beat and raped to get it, then the cops will command you to leave that space. Their entire existence is to function as slave catchers, and we are all the slaves (many more of us even more so). The historical inception of the police force was to quell uprisings from the people and catch slaves that you seem to oppose in other comments.
This is the point where I'm guessing most people get pretty pissed...and don't bother attempting to spend time unpacking this.
If you cared about "free speech" and "free assembly", you would be pissed to learn of the historical supremacy of the US stifling minority and political organizing violently. There wasn't free speech the day there was slavery. Throw that on top of the fact that anti-fa is a general mass of people who plan to stop fascism, then you are demonizing the very force engaging in a battle for free speech.
The balls eh? If y'all really cared about freedom, you would join the oppressed around the world from the plight of the real terrorists. The entire history of the US is supporting fascists and engaging in terrorism.
I wouldn't trust the TV. At least you're coming out talking to us, albeit not in the most respectful manor...
You should.
Damn those WWII vets sure got a lot of kudos for engaging in anti-fascist action, we get this... :(
:(
It's because we love the people that they hate. We care about the context of how we got here and the privileges that we have at the mass enslavement of many humans. You think we're bad? Who do you think we're attacking?
The way things are going? We've been bathed in violence since before we were born. I don't know if you noticed, but the police are basically prison guards, and we are the free range laborers. Imagine the prison as the forced labor internment camp for anyone labeled "criminal". If you're trying to fight a just war, you are fooled if you think the US is just.
Whose communist? Anti-fa is not just communists...and if you think the people they target are "upstanding citizens", you may want to rethink who you respect. The plan is to stomp out fascism where ever it attempts to grow because fascism is really bad.
Oh, no attacks, just this:
Feels pretty fuckin threatening if you put a death sentence on general organizing for anti-fascism...
This is one thing I like about you. The conflict will always be a water-color of reality in the mainstream outlets.
Motives: Love and courage
End goal: Stomp out fascism anywhere, any time.
Hate for america: Because we love freedom
Hate for freedom: It is you that hates the freedom of those oppressed by the ones being attacked by Antifa.
phew
Pop wrote
lol, if teen vogue can get it right, I'm sure you can piece it together from our huge forum on the matter
there's a sidebar also
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
Your story is filled with strawmen...
<<militant self-defense against the far right>>
Dressing like ninjas and attacking us with weapons at our own peaceful rallies isn't self-defense.
<<the primary motivation is to stop racists from organizing>>
This accuses all conservatives of being racists. Another strawman. Wanting to create policies to limit migration is not a racist act, it is actually self defense. We have children to think about, children that depend on us being able to make a decent living to put them through college.
<<confronting these groups before they can gain enough momentum to promote their politics.>>
So you actually admit to hating the constitution?
Pop wrote
claiming 'peacefulness' while promoting policies that disproportionately or wholly harm people of color is a well-known historical tactic among racists to gain legitimacy among people who don't know better
re self-defense; history begs to differ here - again, you'll find loads to read in f/antifa
yeesh, it'd take a lot of work for me personally to get to you considering how far down the racist xenophobia hole you're in. maybe check the sidebar of f/Borders
I don't speak for the others here, but I'm an anarchist
I don't particularly hate the constitution but as I assume you know, anarchists are anti-state, among other things, so obviously we don't want constitutions (or states, or borders) to exist
like the article says, there are different types of antifa, some of which are ok with the existence of states, but probably none of them think that some garbage document written by slaveholders while talking about the freedom of men, and which still endorses slavery, is worth a damn
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
<<claiming 'peacefulness' while promoting policies that disproportionately or wholly harm people of color>>
Black people aren't the problem. The problem is ILLEGAL aliens. People that are INVADERS in this country. We dont have unlimited welfare checks to hand out. Those of us who actually work for a living need to pay for their free ride and it's not fair to ask that of us.
<<racist xenophobia hole you're in>>
I'm not a racist, I actually have dual Israeli/US citizenship!
<<re self-defense; history begs to differ here>>
Not in America. Last I checked, America saved the world from fascism in WW2. Or was that a conspiracy theory too?
<<garbage document written by slaveholders while talking about the freedom of men, and which still endorses slavery, is worth a damn>>
Okay so where in the First Amendment does it say anything about endorsing slavery? Strawman strawman strawman and its so clear to me that you just hate America and want something akin to Chinese autocracy to replace our democratic system.
The system we have might be flawed in some superficial ways, but it's still the BEST system in the world. No country can claim to be as prosperous and free as America. No system is perfect but ours is pretty damned close.
Pop wrote (edited )
omg, thanks for the laugh
I'm not going to respond to you anymore because I don't think you realise you're a parody account
perhaps someone else will pick up the baton
ziq wrote
not worth it
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
Every time I ask for evidence or reasoning or explanation on a lefty site, I get insulted, downvoted to oblivion, or some combination of the two.
No sources. Never any sources. What happened to the "party of science and evidence," eh?
DaisyDisaster wrote
Dude, we are not here to educate you, and we're not a part of some party. This is pretty basic shit you can look up if you * actually * cared about getting out of your bubble. Take a break from Fox News and immerse yourself in some leftist sources for a while.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
Who did you vote for then?
DaisyDisaster wrote
I voted for Clinton because I used to be a liberal until after the election when I realized how fucked up everything was and how inadequate liberalism was to address the world's problems.
I haven't voted since then.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote (edited )
So you're a democrat who realized what a bad leader Shillery would be.
And next time Bernie Sanders will be the candidate or Biden and you'll vote for him.
DaisyDisaster wrote
Uh, no, I'm not even registered as a Democrat and, as I said, I don't vote now. This isn't the gotcha you think it is.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
"""""If it isn't obvious to you, you're obviously a lost cause who can't be reasoned with"""""
ConquestOfToast wrote
It's more that you're not even here in good faith. The questions you ask point to a deep deep place of ignorance. The reason you're getting ignored or insulted is because you're feigning intellectual rigor without putting in the foot work to even have the conversation in the first place. You want us to answer questions within the purview you've already accepted as reality, and when we don't you shoehorn assumptions as some moment where you have the upper hand. This isn't a conversation, this is you screaming into the void, and patting yourself on the back when the void doesn't scream back.
Zzzxxxyyy wrote (edited )
“Last I checked, America saved the world from fascism in WW2.”
TRANSLATION:
“America did something good once and earned the right to shit on the world forever.”
How many of our heroes have gone on to do horrible things? The term is moral licensing.
Also, Israel is still riding the victim train out of the holocaust right over the bodies of Palestinian children. I don’t know how your duel citizenship was supposed to prove you aren’t racist, when you’re president has said Israel is a “Jewish state.” A state based on race is a racist state.
You are so deep in shit you’re breathing it like air.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote (edited )
What about all the African states that limit white migration? Are they racist too? Every nation has the right to defend its borders from invaders. Perhaps Hamas shouldn't use their children as human shields.
mofongo wrote
Inmigrants are not invaders. The american military is an invader.
Israel shouldn't aim at children or bomb residential areas.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
We're talking about Israel here, how is America invading Israel?
Israel wouldn't deliberately kill innocents, that's a strawman.
DaisyDisaster wrote
You live in a bubble.
mofongo wrote (edited )
This phrase means "Terrorist are using children as shield, we shot the child and the terrorist. High five!"
Of course, using children as shield is a lie. Israel is pretty indiscrimate with their shooting.
retiredaccount wrote
Not entirely. They do use civilian shielding, though Israel's equally indiscriminate either way.
Zzzxxxyyy wrote
Do Jewish Israelis have a history of being oppressed by Palestinians? Because, if not, these two things are not the same.
Fascists always parrot the arguments of their victims against them, pretending to be the victims while making slippery slope arguments.
Go away fascist sea lion.
jorgesumle wrote
Use «...» next time
selver wrote (edited )
Starting a post with that is the biggest red flag on the internet.
Ant wrote
yeah and the ingratiating username
TheLegendaryBirdMonster wrote
black block is not the only tool in one's antifa arsenal. For example, doxing right wing extremists is another tool.
As for why black block, this may give you an insight http://humaniterations.net/2012/02/29/you-are-not-the-target-audience/
suterussu wrote
Because you're racist fucks who only care about freedom for yourselves at the expense of others. Your entire existence is based on violence, you don't get to cry about it when people fight back. Get fucked. You deserve a bullet in the fucking head.
DaisyDisaster wrote
I don't think you're here for honest discussion, if this framing is any indication. I don't really have the time to address all the because I'm at work and good god is there a lot to address, but I will say that it will behoove you to lurk more and read some of the information posted in the various antifascist/anarchist/communist subraddles. That's what you should be doing if you want to understand us.
P.S. The black bloc is one tactic that some antifascists use, it is not the entirety of the antifascist movement.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote (edited )
When it's the only public and visible representation of your group, you should consider hiring better PR. Or just disassociating yourselves from the violent extremists even better.
DaisyDisaster wrote
Look up respectability politics.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
##Respectability politics or the politics of respectability refers to attempts by marginalized groups to police their own members and show their social values as being continuous and compatible with mainstream values rather than challenging the mainstream for what they see as its failure to accept difference##
What is the relation?
DaisyDisaster wrote
The relation is we're not interested in "mainstream values," as it puts pressure on marginalized people to appeal to their oppressors. This includes appealing to conservatives in some vain attempt to radicalize them.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
What do you mean by mainstream values? You must mean free speech and the right to assembly, because that's all we are talking about, not gay marriage or abortion or what have you (things that I actually support, as well as many other conservatives).
DaisyDisaster wrote
I honestly can't tell if you're a poe or not, but I'll answer anyway.
Don't assume what I mean, first of all. I don't mean something unless I state it, and if you have any question about what I mean, then ask.
By "mainstream values" I mean values that are generally accepted by society. Things like "the police are good" or "you have to be nice to people who disagree with you." Things kids are generally taught as good. These things are being questioned now, so you see less of this, but several years ago, people wouldn't have questioned them too much.
And yes, that sometimes means having controversial stances on free speach and platforming.
conservative_raddle_fan wrote
Depending on the government to protect you is idiotic because the whole reason Americans are armed is to protect ourselves from the government. These are liberal values, the belief that the government can protect you from criminals. Only we can protect ourselves, by arming ourselves and working out to maintain peak physical and mental performance.
Denying citizens the right to free speech and public protest will only give the government the ammo to declare martial law and crush our freedom forever.
DaisyDisaster wrote
Dude, I'm an anarchist and I'm not anti-gun. If you'd bother to read around here you'd know we're not fond of liberals. We're not liberals. We're leftists.
Secondly, allowing fascists to speak unopposed only allows them to recruit. They aren't interested in honest debate and never were. They don't work with facts.
Thirdly, uh, my dude, you came here complaining about black bloc tactics, which is protest. We're not anti-protest, we're anti-fascist.
I want to note that despite your complaining about the left, you haven't actually provided any examples to back up or clarify your claims, although you complain of us not providing you with "evidence" above.
jorgesumle wrote
I guess that's a typo
Mr. conservative_raddle_fan...
Free speech?! Really? What constitution? I also wrote one.
I don't think people here respect the jobs of illegitimate authorities, see f/acab.
Burning down our homes and destroying our forests, fellow animals would respond.
That's a critic against capitalism or against victims of capitalism?
Why would someone hate a piece of Earth? Who is our?
GaldraChevaliere wrote
I really don't give a fuck what you think of me. If you ever cared about the cause we fight for you'd have joined in already instead of handwringing over image.
You aren't free, neither of us are. You might have more freedoms, comparatively, than me given that you don't have to go outside with a weapon or an escort half the time, or get harassed by the cops on a monthly basis. But in the end we're still both getting pissed on from above, even if you want to call it rain.
What the fuck do I care about your cops dying for? You sure as hell don't care when black boys get shot in the backs for having a nice watch, or when transwomen get raped and murdered in numbers up in the dozens on a yearly basis without any justice or even the dignity of their name on their pauper's grave. I have no sympathy if a cop gets what's coming to him, it's what he signed up for. If you're so 'upstanding', stop crying and either pick up a fucking gun or get to work in a food line. Do something for the people around you instead of saying "fuck you, I got mine". Elevate others to your position.
You know what my motive is? My motive is to be able to go one day without worrying about my partners getting killed or arrested, or the same happening to me, not because of what we do but because of what we are. My motive is not having to worry about getting buried in medical bills we cannot hope to pay even with all of us working, by whatever means we can even scrounge up, if one of us gets sick. Or starving to death or freezing in the streets if we get evicted for being a pack of tranny faggots.
You know why I hate America and your 'freedom' so much? Because America, by the laws it passes and the slackjawed selfish and shortsighted pricks that have the audacity to call themselves upstanding marked me and everyone I love for death. Because this isn't new behavior for America and there isn't some 'golden age' to restore. It's been this way since 17-70-fucking-6.
raindropq wrote
?
geegaw wrote
I'm the kind of person who would fisk your entire post and try to address every sentence of it, but I also have other things to do. So I'll just pick some things that stand out:
WNs are hardly innocent; their ideology is inherently violent. Given half a chance they will institute ethnic cleansing, as they have done repeatedly in the past and continue to do to this day.
My end goal is for the fascists to crawl back into their hidey holes. I'm probably more pacifist then your typical antifascist - I'm more than happy to see WNs stop what they're doing without bruises or bloodshed if possible.
What freedoms and for whom? I'll refer to Swedish rockabilly and genital rock icon Errol Nordstedt for my feelings on the U-nited States:
Heja USA
oh and this one too:
Feta Fula Dumma Amerikaner
Of course this was written back when the US was still the global hegemon. In short: nobody likes you