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Talk to me about anarcho-nihilism, please. archive.org

Submitted by noordinaryspider in Anarchy101

Hi,

I've been reading this and it's been helping a lot. I'd like to learn more. I've had the word "nihilist" hurled at me as an insult for many years but never calmly applied as an objective description before.

Apologies if this is posted in the wrong forum, as I am a brand new shiny Raddler and unlikely to completely avoid making dumb mistakes. ;)

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selver wrote

I really enjoyed the book you posted, and agree with the majority of it. Even if I'm optimistic about social change at times, the majority of the time I'm not, and anarcho-nihilism offers a useful way of framing it whether the situation is hopeless or not.

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ziq wrote

I get called a nihilist a lot for opposing civilization, because I see it as the root of all oppression. So I embrace it. A lot of basic people just use it to describe anyone that's more radical than themselves.

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noordinaryspider wrote

I'm no strange to embracing epitaphs.

I didn't start reading Marx seriously until I got flamed/dismissed with "But that would be communism!" and literally offerred a "nice shiny DVD of the Passion of Christ" as a doggie biscuit for promising to stay off of the debate subforum of a parenting forum.

The alpha release of the word "anticiv" in the 1970s was "back-to-the-lander". My brother was a more devoted and radical anticiv anarchist than me, but I totally understood and respected where he was coming from.

There were still elements of nihilism even when we were kids, though, because he never expected to change anything or even try to prevent Donald Trump. He just wanted to get as far away from the cities as he could, live his life, and laugh as civilization rotted from the inside out and destroyed itself.

So why am I so afraid of a word? It's a reasonable description of who I am, what my life has been like, and how to work through this stage of processing past experiences and come out reasonably happy and productive.

So yea I'm a nihilist. What's the problem? Why would I want to hang out with people who have something against nihilists?

I like you, ziq. Feel free to take a break from drama with a private message to me that has nothing to do with ongoing site issues if you ever need or want to.

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ziq wrote (edited )

He just wanted to get as far away from the cities as he could, live his life, and laugh as civilization rotted from the inside out and destroyed itself.

Pretty much me, except civilization seems to be surviving rotting from the inside out so far, it's just everything around it that's been destroyed. Oh, and my generation has to continue working in the city even after we go back to the land. Needed a 15 year loan to pay for my one acre. Still got 7 years of payments left on it.

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noordinaryspider wrote (edited )

That's about the size of it. It just wasn't practical for me to go into that sort of debt and I didn't have the physical strength even though both of us had two X chromosomes and uteruses and all the good stuff. The sixtysomethings I'm still in touch with have the same story.

The grass isn't greener, it's just different grass. We're all fucked. I'm jealous of my brother for dying in 1992 if you want to know the truth, and I'd like to pummel him with my puny fists for asking me to remember him as he was instead of eulogizing him with flowery euphemisms.

Honestly, he had no way of knowing how difficult this was going to be for me when he died. No one thought much about a 200 pounds of solid muscle mountain man with a driver's licence that said something similar to "Tiffany Fluffy Foo-Foo" on it in 1992, he was just "weird" or "ugly" or "a tomboy" but now I don't even know my own dead awesome badass sibling's preferred name and pronouns!

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noordinaryspider wrote (edited )

I was insensitive about generational issues and I apologize. Of course you have greater debt than my sixtysomething friends. My Associate of the Arts degree was essentially free except for textbooks and living expenses and my 29 year old daughter's BA will be so expensive to pay off that she can't afford children, much less home ownership and all the trappings of adulthood that my parents' generation considers mandatory for being treated with respect.

Also the sky is blue.

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noordinaryspider wrote

He practically raised me, in case it isn't obvious, and he wasn't much more than a baby himself when I was born.

I miss him.

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ziq wrote (edited )

He sounds awesome.

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GrimWillow wrote

I'm no expert on nihilism at all, but I've always identified with the concepts when they're described to me.

I don't often say this to people around me because they often make the assumption that I have lots of optimistic hope for the future, so it doesn't come up, but I have none. I believe that industrial capitalism has gone far beyond what a human habitat can handle, and all those wealthy families over centuries have successfully summoned the hell so often feared in religious texts.

I was going to expand on this further, but I suddenly have to go out the door. I'll come back later and thanks for the book. Looks interesting.

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GrimWillow wrote (edited )

ok, so here's a small expansion of what I was saying.

Even though I think the future is doomed and we live in a hell created by the wealthy throughout history, and we are at a pinnacle point in their agenda, I still believe in resistance to it. I think we're long past any point of being able to survive this, and the generations inheriting this mess are completely doomed, but Anarchism is what I believe to be the right path, and it is an exercise of the only freedom I possess. It the useless vote I make with my actions and lifestyle in the face of their tides of oppression. A glimpse into possibilities that have come too late. On top of this, I will live and die as an Anarchist, and it already has helped insulate people I love from greater amounts of oppression. The more people that do this, the better. Will it save us? No.

edit: Reworded a bit to reflect that every day actions of Anarchism add up to a lot more safer spaces for people in general, even if its project to free the oppressed, or at least halt the advance of globalizing tyrants, has not yet succeeded.

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selver wrote

Sounds pretty close to what I just read in OP's link. Not going to be led to the slaughter quietly, and we can take joy in that resistance, even if it's ultimately futile.

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GrimWillow wrote (edited )

The greatest joy in my life is when I engage in actions that reflect on my true desires. I have realized the hollowness of the rewards that the system offers. I am constantly paying the money I "earned" to recover from "earning" it. And who gets the most from that trade off? Those who have commanded my location and demanded my actions reflect their desires of control, oppression, and growth.

My joy is in the destruction of their malignant desires. Because I do not desire their control, oppression, and growth to exist. Whatever happens at the point in time that I choose to act on my desires instead of theirs, I will know the joy of being the person I truly wish to be.

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selver wrote

Couldn't have said it better. All I get from the work that takes over my life is the money to recover from it. The trade is never worth it. Gotta take that moral victory of fucking them over whenever possible.

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noordinaryspider wrote (edited )

Without going into too much irrelevant personal detail--how would you live if you had devoted your entire life to a cause you believed in so deeply that it became so much a part of who you are that you sacrificed everything for it, only to find it co-opted by corporations who understood nothing about why you believed it could make a better world, and the people who you were trying to help believed the corporations and despised and reviled you?

What is the normal way for a human being to react to these circumstances?

Riot porn and arson fantasies are part of it, but compassion and wanting to tend to "our own" wounded, incarcerated, and the families of our fallen are the other side of the same coin.

A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNfucKAftB0 mistook me for a threat to myself and/or others on a tech board and it freaked me out. Now that I have a word for it, it doesn't any more. The https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNfucKAftB0 was mistaken.

I still have a lot of studying to do and I'm going to make mistakes and accidentally offend people but I think I've found a safe place to process what went down afk during #OccupyMySmallTown six years ago, lol.

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GrimWillow wrote

how would you live if you had devoted your entire life to a cause you believed in so deeply that it became so much a part of who you are that you sacrificed everything for it, only to find it co-opted by corporations who understood nothing about why you believed it could make a better world, and the people who you were trying to help believed the corporations and despised and reviled you?

What is the normal way for a human being to react to these circumstances?

Normal reaction I think is depression and feelings of betrayal, hopelessness, and being de-energized. Especially if it was your life's work. Even projects that have been explicitly anti-capitalist have been recuperated in the past, so it's hard to even imagine something not just blowing up in your face.

Riot porn and arson fantasies are part of it, but compassion and wanting to tend to "our own" wounded, incarcerated, and the families of our fallen are the other side of the same coin.

Yea, it's always tough because we're always on the defensive and everyone is so damaged in so many different ways that it feels like we're on fire and trying to put ourselves out while also trying to defend ourselves in combat.

A normie mistook me for a threat to myself and/or others on a tech board and it freaked me out. Now that I have a word for it, it doesn't any more. The normie was mistaken.

I'm mostly familiar with the term "normie" from the incel/chan crowd so it's weird to hear it referring to non-radically minded people; but I'm not suggesting that you associate with that crowd at all, just relating my experience with the word.

When you say that you now have a word for "it", what is the "it"? Nihilism?

I still have a lot of studying to do and I'm going to make mistakes and accidentally offend people but I think I've found a safe place to process what went down afk during #OccupyMySmallTown six years ago, lol.

Yea, I also have a lot to learn. We've all been through a lot of intense brainwashing, but attempting to not recreate the horror that put us here is integral, so call-ins are extremely important. All the studying we can on our own relieves the load and potential pressure from those around us also trying to heal. But obviously there are so many blind-spots that we don't always even know what we should be reading.

Oh god, the Occupy movement is rife with problems, but overall I'd say that it was a really good thing. Unfortunately, it was preyed on by many a predator because it was a hotzone for newly radicalized people who were unfamiliar with the terrain. So many cases of police, fascist, and capitalist infiltration left it torn apart. Ultimately it points to the need for better security culture and better politics to be at the helm. By "better politics" I mean addressing patriarchy, white supremacy, transphobia, and classism (capitalism).

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noordinaryspider wrote (edited )

[quote]I'm mostly familiar with the term "normie" from the incel/chan crowd so it's weird to hear it referring to non-radically minded people; but I'm not suggesting that you associate with that crowd at all, just relating my experience with the word. [/quote]

I have language issues and was not aware of that connotation of the word. It turned out to be nothing but a https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNfucKAftB0 and not particularly important; I'll work on being more concise in the future.

Yes, I believe "nihilist" and "death positive" are appropriate descriptive adjectives and much more accurate than "major depressive disorder" and "suicidal ideation" to describe my situation, predicament, and discomfort.

Your description of the Occupy movement is also accurate and consistent with my own experience but the guilt I felt after walking away, closing my front door, and withdrawing from people who could understand my lived experience was a mistake.

Better security culture is exactly what is needed. If the pigs show up at my door with a straightjackjet and a bottle of prozac, I will torch this rental property or shoot some bacon before I walk like a sheep to slaughter.

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noordinaryspider wrote

I especially loved the part about the people who were singing and fucking in the gas chambers during their last few minutes of life.

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ziq wrote (edited )

It really annoys me when ancoms condescendingly call me a lifestylist because I recognize this futility. Needing to believe in a holy revolution where anarchists will rise up surrounded in light and save the world just means you'll never actually be an anarchist because after a decade of your fantastic revolution not getting any closer, you'll throw in the towel and work on your stock portfolio instead.

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afk wrote

is it annoying when i say a believed holy revolution could be synonymous with anarcha nihilist lifestyle practice where rising up in light requires a grounding in dirt and shit and connecting our world between others' even when it seems futile because life isn't about style but a sacred, fiery soul. ?

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GrimWillow wrote (edited )

I was thinking it might be like that. It sounds like it will be a good read! Thanks for having mentioned it in the other thread.