Why do anarchists sabotage left unity efforts?

Submitted by leftunity in Anarchism

I’m an ML and I’ve been reading raddle a lot recently to try and understand you guys.

You seem incredibly hostile towards communism, with a die hard aversion to violence and whatever else you brand, ‘authoritarian’....

I was utterly perplexed when I saw someone ask what ‘tankies’ are and the most upvoted comment claimed, “Marxist-Leninists”....

There was even someone that was telling a newbie not to read Stalin.

So although our end goals are the same, the repulsive Trotsky-esque manner in which you thoroughly sabotage the revolution by painting MLs and fascists with the same brush makes left unity impossible. MLs aren't "tankies" or "state capitalists" or "red fascists", we're communists. We want to install communism, not capitalism. State capitalism is only a stop-gap measure on the way to communism.

Us communists are never hostile to you people like this, we never spread rumors about our comrades or call you secret reactionaries. It's completely one-sided and makes me suspect you are having your strings pulled by imperialist interests like the CIA without even knowing it. Who is even behind this site? Do you know? 9 times out of 10, anti-communist movements like Raddleme are psyops from the US government.

Okay, whenever communists discuss anarchism we do point out the idealistic nature of your ideology. I agree this is your problem, and I do tend to work to educate my anarchist comrades so they come to communism instead. But I'm completely civil about it and don't attack the human, only expose the flaws of the ideology.

Is left unity possible? The right is extremely united. From conservative rednecks to radicalized nazis, they all seem very close and void of the sort of infighting you see on the left (of which 99% is coming from anarchists and ultras).

I just don’t see how a revolution can happen if anarchist comrades would be the first ones to tarnish and sabotage the vanguard party’s actions. I don't see how the party can succeed with you all standing in our way and shouting us down.

I'm not even going to plead with you to strengthen left unity, I simply ask that you take a step back and stop actively opposing our push for revolution. You're only empowering the fascists by opposing communism.

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Pop wrote (edited )

It's very hard to engage you because you appear at every level to have no idea what you're talking about, out of both what appears to be a misunderstanding of marxism and a misunderstanding of anarchism

we have a tiny wiki about it, btw, w/tankie

For a decent and very generous (to marxists) conversation around (decent) marxism and anarchism I'd suggest you listen to this lucid podcast, linked here, where a marxist interviews an anarchist.

but since I can't bring myself to do real work today, let's have a go:

You seem incredibly hostile towards communism

Most anarchists are anarcho-communist, I'm told. That's hardly hostility, that's affinity. Which points to you having a very narrow idea of what communism is, and also doesn't bode well for your implication that you somehow aren't a tankie

Personally I think anarchists should ditch any sign of redness and that your politics are poison. Marx diagnosed the problem (of capital) quite well after cribbing from Proudhon but his solution and his temperament is of one who likes to cling to power.

die hard aversion to violence

What on earth are you talking about? There's a difference between being against violence and being against authority. Here's your first huge misunderstanding. Most anarchists think that nonviolence protects authority, and is racist, sexist, etc.

So that's clue number 1 that you have no idea what anarchism is.

There was even someone that was telling a newbie not to read Stalin.

Why on earth would an anarchist want to read Stalin? Except maybe to understand why anarchists think Stalin's a fuckshow. Clue number 2.

the repulsive Trotsky-esque manner in which you thoroughly sabotage the revolution

What in goodness name do you mean? Trotskyists can gtfo too.

Anarchists in the most genuine form are not interested in revolution as you use it. revolutions leads to new arrangements. We want permanent insurrection, the constant calculated revolt against all authority, against being arranged.

Comparisonse with Trotskyists is clue number 3. We're stacking up evidence here!

Us communists are never hostile to you people like this, we never spread rumors about our comrades or call you secret reactionaries

This is so false it makes me think you're a parody account. More than anything, this is a clue that you have no idea what your 'communist' friends are doing in relation to anarchists.

Okay, whenever communists discuss anarchism we do point out the idealistic nature of your ideology. ... But I'm completely civil about it and don't attack the human, only expose the flaws of the ideology.

Idealistic? In what sense?

At this stage you've expressed such a clear lack of understanding of what anarchism is, and a lack of care to really take the time to engage us in a genuine way, and are literally parrotting standard thoughtless critique reflective of that, it makes you seem completely insincere. By this stage of the reading I'm more or less convinced you through-and-through have no idea what anarchism is and your polite demeanour is sealion-adjascent.

Is left unity possible?

Have you studied the history of left unity? The best answers to the left unity question can be found in the podcast I linked.
In short, though, most of the left is disgusting to anarchists. I personally think marxism is not even so much as a half measured attempt at revolution, with liberal tendencies in the way that it tries to use the system to unmake the system.
I can work with genuine marxists (of the autonomous kind, usually), on specific projects, same as I do with anybody.

The right is extremely united

Curious about what this sentence means to you.

the sort of infighting you see on the left (of which 99% is coming from anarchists and ultras).

You do realise how this makes you seem like you think everyone who disagrees with you are the ones to be called "infighters", underlying your prejudices and your lack of intention to engage us genuinely.

just don’t see how a revolution can happen if anarchist comrades would be the first ones to tarnish and sabotage the vanguard party’s actions.

Literally the first point of difference in theory between Marxism an anarchism is on vanguards, how they create or maintain self-sustaining hierarchies, are fundamentally paternal, and separate individuals from their own ability to act. How on earth do you expect us to go along with you on this point then?
This is really the nail in the coffin of the idea that you have even a clue what anarchism is. Before you come pretend to educate us in that shitty way that vanguards do, it might help to understand that we consider that fundamentally hostile to our liberation.

I'm not even going to plead with you to strengthen left unity, I simply ask that you take a step back and stop actively opposing our push for revolution. You're only empowering the fascists by opposing communism.

Actually I'm too bored to explain to you what kind of a bad paragraph this is.

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leftunity OP wrote

If you're so disgusted by the left, then I think even anarchists would want nothing to do with you. I'd rather debate with a leftist, but I'll at least answer one of your questions in the meanwhile since it's relevant to non-capitalist anarchists. Please be aware that every time I refer to anarchists, I don't mean anarcho-capitalists, who I don't even consider worth the time of day.

Idealistic? In what sense?

Within Marxist thought, it's acknowledged that anarchism actively seeks to defeat the revolution by undermining and sabotaging all attempts to build common infrastructure for the new communist society, starting with the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

Anarchists undermine all our efforts at centralization and we know the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is necessary as the first building block to form all the infrastructure that will develop post-capitalist society cohesively and unite the workers under a common goal. Without this cohesion, the progression of communism simply cannot happen. We need to put the centralized infrastructure in place in order to build the foundations for communism. It is a slow but deliberate process that will take several generations to actualize. Anarchists take a jackhammer to these foundations and try to destroy all progress communists make towards a revolutionary society.

Marxists believe that anarchism therefore stands in the way of progress, and strives to prevent the workers from uniting in causes on a scope larger than a single detached community. Anarchism is also unable to prevent hostile invasions as it isolates its adherents from the wider global worker-base. History has demonstrated this is true literally every time. Anarchist communities collapse in ruins almost immediately due to both internal and external pressures, whilst communist societies such as the USSR, DPRK, PRC, Cuba and more thrive for decades.

Anarchism therefore has a consistent tendency to revert to the previous, reactionary social system.

For example, if a left anarchist established an anarchist community and a group of you ancaps wanted to form a new Feudal society within it, there is nothing to stop you from doing so and then enslaving all the left communists.

In theory, left anarchist communities could unite under the presence of such a threat in order to defeat it, but history shows us the reality is anarchists don't work very well with themselves or others due to their individualist inclinations. Anarchists are unable to act as a cohesive unit the way communists do and end up throwing in the towel and accepting co-option by reactionaries and imperialists when they see how impossible it is for anarchism to work on a wide-scale.

Anarchists are opposed to Marxism due to our desire for a temporary State and Marxists reject the infantile folly that is Anarchism for its refusal to accept an established infrastructure that unites the workers and allows us all to work towards the common goal of communism.

I believe that every left anarchist can be converted to communism once they are successfully educated in Marxist theory, but the problem lies is the uneducated anarchists seeding chaos and destruction, dividing the left and standing in the way of progress during crucial crunch times leading up to the revolution.

In such times there's no other alternative but to treat the anarchists the same way we would treat other reactionaries who seek to damage the revolution and revert society to its previous capitalist form.

So to summarize, I believe in left unity up to an extent. There are times for education and there are times for revolution. If the anarchists who are not yet educated are standing in the way of the revolution, then they unfortunately need to be dealt with decisively.

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Ant wrote (edited )

If the anarchists who are not yet educated are standing in the way of the revolution, then they unfortunately need to be dealt with decisively.

didn't take long

"left unity means anarchists must get in line"

and you sincerely ask why we think your politics are garbage

nobody thinks anarcho-capitalists exist around here, you just know so little about anarchism and leftism that you think that's what pop was saying

at what stage does your completely unfounded confidence and your ideological blinkering get undermined by people repeatedly pointing out that you don't know what you're talking about

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leftunity OP wrote

A revolution can't succeed as long as the struggle is thwarted by reactionary elements within the working class. Would you allow a wolf to sleep with your flock? It's exactly the same situation as with counter-revolutionaries. To pretend that we are on the same side when the anarchists are actively working to sabotage the revolution would be a grave mistake. We are comrades during the education process, but not during the revolution, when you become the greatest impediment to our efforts.

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Splinglebot wrote

the fact that you see the working class as "your flock" is really telling

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Ant wrote

You're killing me with the paternalistic shepherd analogy and your benevolent posturing

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leftunity OP wrote

Why is it that when anarchists can't engage intelligently with the actual content being presented, you always go straight to abusive personal attacks to save face?

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Ant wrote

Just to be clear, you've just in one fell swoop basically looked down on anarchists, treating them like unruly children in need of education, and literally threatened them with "decisive action" (usually in the case of you disgusting people is death or gulag), but my response to your horrible engagment, which points to the marxist's failure to understand that means produce ends and therefore that the personal is political, is the one that is abusive?

fackoff stankie

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leftunity OP wrote

Thank you so much for making all my points for me. As soon as a Marxist comes along and tries to engage you all in intelligent debate, you go straight for the jugular, try to abuse us into silence because you know you can't possibly debate us in earnest without actual theory behind you. Pathetic.

Is it so hard to understand that a society requires certain mechanisms to function and securing those mechanisms for the people has to take precedent over coddling counter-revolutionary reactionaries that are actively trying to destroy those very mechanisms and push us back to the dark ages?

Fuck anarchists, you're all pathetic spoiled teenagers that couldn't lead a revolution if your sad middle class lives depended on it.

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Ant wrote

seriously though try to understand even a single thing people have been saying to you

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Splinglebot wrote

intelligent debate

is that what you're calling this drivel? Sorry I thought you were trying to proselytize for your religion

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mofongo wrote

What if yourself is the reactionary element within the working class? Will you purge yourself?

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ziq wrote

Why purge themselves when they just can rewrite reality and cast themselves as the ultra-woke hero and everyone else as 'reactionary scum'?

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Majrelende wrote

The wolf/sheep analogy, if you ignore its connotations, works either way.

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leftunity OP wrote

nobody thinks anarcho-capitalists exist around here, you just know so little about anarchism and leftism that you think that's what pop was saying

Oh really?

This is how one of your members describes anarchism:

The way I view anarchism is a loose association of business owners that cooperate when we have common interests but compete with each other when we don't (so the free market isn't compromised).

I think it's clear that this site has even more of a reactionary element than normal anarchist sites.

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lori wrote

I think it's clear that this site has even more of a reactionary element than normal anarchist sites.

Because we have yet to purge all dissent, I assume?

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Ant wrote

He's not one of ours, he's a clown like you who's managed not to be banned because they haven't broken the terms of service. It's obvious enough to any regular on this site.

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leftunity OP wrote

Like there's any difference between him and you lol. At least he's honest about what anarchism is about.

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Majrelende wrote

one of your members

one of your members

one of your members

one of your members

one of your members

one of your members

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Pop wrote

Yeah unfortunately it seems you haven't understood much of anything I said so I'm not going to say much more, except that if you actually tried you might be able to have a real conversation with us. Read some basic anarchist theory before coming here and looking like a clown to all of us.

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leftunity OP wrote

It's rich that you're telling me to read theory...

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Pop wrote (edited )

I'm not the one coming to your space and proposing a bunch of things that show my complete lack of understanding of the people I'm engaging. I know more than enough about marx, stale hegel-derived dialectical materialism, and class-reductionist nonsense to engage you. You on the other hand know jack shit about our politics at all, nevermind its philosophical underpinnings.

Just like liberals tend to have a silly and warped idea of what marxism is about, you tankies have a a silly and warped idea of what anarchism is about, because the leaders whose boots you lick ensured it.

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ziq wrote

dealt with decisively

You mean murder us, right?

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keerin wrote

We've seen Communists dealing with Anarchists decisively before. Usually with a noose or a bullet.

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ziq wrote

Or they just snitch to fascists or cops and let them do their dirty work for them.

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CIA wrote

makes me suspect you are having your strings pulled by imperialist interests like the CIA without even knowing it. Who is even behind this site? Do you know? 9 times out of 10, anti-communist movements like Raddleme are psyops from the US government.

rude

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bloodrose wrote

Oh my god, I thought I was reading a joke post. Are you actually for real?

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leftunity OP wrote

This kind of dismissive elitism without any actual critique behind it is a good example of the thoughtless sabotage I'm talking about. It's just like your edgy graffiti and empty slogans, it shows no understanding of anti-capitalist theory beyond surface-level aesthetics.

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Ant wrote

Your inability to see how you genuinely seem like a parody only feeds the fire. We are honestly gobsmacked, and you don't get it because your ideology rigidly precedes your engagement with everything beyond you

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bloodrose wrote

I wasn't willing to actually engage in discussion because I was worried someone was going to say "haha, it's a joke account". The tone sounded sarcastic.

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Splinglebot wrote

Us communists are never hostile to you people like this, we never spread rumors about our comrades or call you secret reactionaries.

oof my sides

It's completely one-sided and makes me suspect you are having your strings pulled by imperialist interests like the CIA without even knowing it. Who is even behind this site? Do you know? 9 times out of 10, anti-communist movements like Raddleme are psyops from the US government.

this is satire right? Nobody can write "we never call you secret reactionaries" then immediately say "I suspect you are having your strings pulled by imperialist interests like the CIA"

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mofongo wrote

It's hilarious, it could be posted in /f/meta_ without changing a single word and fit.

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leftunity OP wrote

Comrade, you're confusing Marxist critiques of anarchist ideology with hostility and rumors. Communists don't need to tell lies or engage in petty personal attacks as we have all the theory on our side. We can expose anarchist ideology scientifically and without lowering ourselves to the level of juveniles.

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Chylan wrote

Ok, who made this parody account? Great job! It's actually funny!

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ziq wrote

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n_n wrote (edited )

The left sabotages itself, they don't need help of anarchists for that.

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lori wrote

I just don’t see how a revolution can happen if anarchist comrades would be the first ones to tarnish and sabotage the vanguard party’s actions. I don't see how the party can succeed with you all standing in our way and shouting us down.

good

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