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morbo OP wrote

I hate reddit, oh fuck I hate reddit.

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ploopt wrote

It's OK because these cops will be JUSTIFIED!

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SomeIconoclast wrote

Local militias would be chosen from and by the people.

Ah, yes. The people's police, elected by the people's consensus to put those who don't follow the people's laws into the people's prison.

It is consensus not just majority voting, which means that decisions are made in a way that only a decision EVERYONE AGREES TO can be made and everyone can veto

Everyone has to agree to a decision before any action is taken; this somehow won't lead to the majority using peer pressure or other means to get a unanimous vote, because reaching consensus is somehow immune to fostering hierarchy. Democracy, folks!

You don't understand anarchist theory in the slightest

If it leads to this garbage, we don't need it.

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ratbum wrote

So I'm sure I'm going to make myself extremely unpopular here, but without a police force of some description, how do you stop yourself becoming effectively governed by the mob?

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Pop wrote (edited )

Strong communities make police obsolete

included in that is decent accountability/reparations processes

f/accountability
f/reparations

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ratbum wrote (edited )

I agree with this in many cases, but I can't imagine there not being a need for specialist forensics in certain cases. I also think there will emerge another power structure that will take over through the use of violence.

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Pop wrote

forensics doesn't have to have anything to do with police, it's just a kind of inquiry/investigation

I'm not convinced it's desirable in an anarchist society but insofar as it is, it needn't be tied to authority or its violence, and would have to be made accessible (i.e. significantly de-specialised)

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ziq wrote

This has nothing to do with the police, what you're talking about is scientists.

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ratbum wrote

The detectives and criminologists who piece this stuff together ore pretty specific kinds of scientists. The kind you only have because they're needed by law enforcement.

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ziq wrote

Says you. Why do they need to be governed by the police to function?

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mofongo wrote

What makes you think that the police won't side with the mob in this context?

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ratbum wrote

Historically, this usually doesn't happen.

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[deleted] wrote

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ratbum wrote

When I say the mob, I mean organised crime. As bad as these people are, they're not the mafia.

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ziq wrote

You know the mafia employs police, right?

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ratbum wrote

Of course, but not all of them.

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ziq wrote

you're literally making a "just some rotten apples" argument. the whole barrel is spoiled by those rotten apples. all it takes to create tyranny is to give people the power to create it. The idea that you can create authoritarian systems and then hope for the best is deeply flawed. As soon as some of them abuse their power, we're all fucked.

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ratbum wrote

I agree that idea is deeply flawed, but I think also, the idea that you can just destroy the police and be free from tyranny forever is crazy.

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ziq wrote (edited )

Anarchy is a constant struggle against authority, no person who understands authority would claim authority can ever cease to exist.

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dieselriot wrote

It's crazier to think one could be free from tyranny with police around.

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ratbum wrote

I don't think that. I think we'll always be subject to some form of tyranny.

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dieselriot wrote

Well, in my country, areas controlled by the "mob" are mostly crime free (I'm talking about crime against regular people, not banks or corporations), they use a lot of the money they get to help the people, and the major problem in living in those areas is when the police comes around and starts shooting and raping innocents.

There are also places controlled by the so called "militia", which is made up mostly of former cops. They harass the population, charge protection fees and what not. And the president says they're good because they fight the "mob", and wants to make them a legal force in the future. The truth is that he likes them because they're his fascist friends, but whatever.

The point is, I'll take criminals in power over police any day.

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ziq wrote

We're already governed by the mob (the 1%) thanks to their monopoly on violence (the cops).

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ratbum wrote

I don't disagree; but I think if you remove these people, others will take their place and they won't necessarily be better.

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ziq wrote

If you remove the 1% they'll be replaced? So how does keeping cops help?

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ratbum wrote

My question is just the reverse of yours. Assuming they'll be replaced, how does removing them help?

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ziq wrote

Without an institutional monopoly on violence (the police), how can the replacements function? What's to stop us from just killing them if there's no police?

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ratbum wrote

There would be a new monopoly on violence (the mafia is best placed to become this) and there will be another oppositional force (you) which will equally be infiltrated by the mafia. I don't believe this kind of violence is something you can just get rid of.

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ziq wrote (edited )

how would they have a monopoly on violence if we can just kill them without getting arrested for it? That's not a monopoly. Even if some organized criminals are able to gain a foothold over a small area, you can just leave. There's no police to arrest you for squatting when you take up residence elsewhere. The reason the mafia has so much power is because they are deeply ingrained in the state's systems. They control politicians and police and have access to firearms that the rest of us are denied access to (by the state). Without those systems, their power is unable to grow. Without a monopoly on violence, they are only as powerful as their armed numbers. If the rest of us outnumber them and are also armed, they don't stand a chance.

Besides, the mafia only exists because they trade in contraband. Drugs or alcohol or firearms, as well as protection rackets. If there's no state to ban things, and no private business to shake down, there's no mafia.

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ratbum wrote

The mafia (or something like it) itself would retaliate against you; probably not with arrest, but elsewhere.

This group will take control of some resource supply that there's a shortage of and they will use this for power. I just believe that the mafia only exists because of the law.

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ziq wrote

Again, how does a police force prevent "mafia" from trying to seize power? How would police do a better job of it than the ordinary members of the affected community?

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ratbum wrote

It has training, resources and professionalism that an ordinary community doesn't. Someone who's been a police officer for 20 years is going to be a lot better at it than some random guy off the street.

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dieselriot wrote

Even if that were true, which I highly doubt, what stops the police from taking the mafia's place after wiping them out?

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ratbum wrote

Absolutely nothing. I think this kind of thing is just not possible to get rid of.

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dieselriot wrote

Now we're getting somewhere. Although you're certainly right on not being able to get rid of all authority, I'm all in for making our communities as able as possible to fight authority without depending on anyone else but themselves. I can't see any other way that doesn't just create more authority than it brings down.

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ratbum wrote

I think just the fact that you can be an expert at something makes that unviable as a general strategy. On average, you're always going to lose to a professional army, criminal organization or whatever. You'll always lose to gang violence - and you just can't get rid of it, whether it's criminals or the state.

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dieselriot wrote

I mean, if the population is depending on a police force in the first place, that most likely makes them unfit for combat and easily controlled by that police. This also makes it more likely for the police to have most of the guns, since they needed it to "fight the mafia", right?

I'm just wondering how is this any different from today's police.

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dieselriot wrote

I still think that, all in all, you'd be better off striking a deal with the "mafia" or standing up to them yourself over electing more authority to try and shoot people for you.

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Majrelende wrote

Find out why there is a mob, and if you have somehow hurt a large number of people in some way, apologise, recognise your mistakes, and try to find a reasonable solution.

If the mob is acting out of malice or some other irrational cause, do your best to show them where they were mistaken.

If that does not work, get help from those who you know will support you and protect you.

As a last resort, leave.

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ratbum wrote

This doesn't sound like something that's ever worked, but it's also unrelated because I was talking about the mafia and organised crime generally.

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jabber wrote

The only police we need is private police. If they work for the government, they'll step on all our rights.

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rational_ancap wrote

as an anarcho-capitalist (to the uneducated that means I am a bastion of facts, logic and reason), I am glad someone finally fell for my bullshit understands that the only way that freedom can be realised is with a private police force that I control because I have all the money.

May the blessings of the free market™ be upon you, my fine slavebusiness partner.

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ziq wrote (edited )

Your private police would somehow refrain from stepping on the "rights" of others?

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