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OdiousOutlaw wrote (edited )

People don't want to be killed, especially when they did nothing wrong. People also don't want to be hurt, especially when they did nothing wrong.

Therefore violence should be minimized as much as possible.

Okay.

If you are in a desert have a bottle of water & a mugger attacks you & steal the water, they will have to compensate you (sooner or later), regardless of their circumstances.

If some people break your front door steal some food & run away, they will have to compensate you (sooner or later), regardless of their circumstances.

They have to compensate you? Sooner or later? What stops this from being a meaningless platitude exactly? If I steal something, it's mine; that's what stealing is. Something has to enforce this principal or it's just a useless moral obligation. And if some entity is enforcing a principal, it's essentially law enforcement; which I, as an anarchist, am opposed to.

EDIT: Voluntaryism relies on the premise that everyone will just go along with these compensation claims, which just won't happen; people can be anywhere from nice to mean. So Voluntaryism requires incentive in order to encourage the following of its principals. Said incentive can be threatening loss in one's quality of life (imprisonment, punishment, death, slavery) or reward-based. These incentives require some form of government to manage these incentives and mediate between compensation claims. Said government can be based publicly, privately, or mixed. The result would be the same: a society with that isn't too different from our own. It's just a change in who has power and how much they have. It avails the disadvantaged nothing. It avails Anarchists nothing. It avails anyone that hates the status quo nothing. That's why it's bad.

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Silver_ OP wrote

What stops this from being a meaningless platitude exactly?

Ostracism, loss of honor & unfortunately maybe some people will be willing to be vigilantes to have a "revenge"

We simply ask the bad guy If he is willing to compensate. If he do, we'll negociate. If he doesn't want to come in (private) "court" (discussing with me), I will say it to the "public" & he will be shamed from the community

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OdiousOutlaw wrote (edited )

Ostracism, loss of honor & unfortunately maybe some people will be willing to be vigilantes to have a "revenge"

I can get behind the idea that actions that harm others can have consequences and that helping others can be rewarding. That's fine, and usually a commonality between leftist anarchists and post-left anarchists, but that isn't really enough.

Asking "the bad guy" if he is willing to compensate relies on the idea that you've seen said "bad guy", that you are aware of where they are, and that they'll even entertain the idea of compensating you. People steal for a reason: If I went through the trouble of breaking into your house and stealing food from you, odds are it's because I'm hungry and desperate; meaning that compensation would be unlikely.

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Silver_ OP wrote

We can send an email, letter or any other means to contact the bad guy.

If I went through the trouble of breaking into your house and stealing food from you, odds are it's because I'm hungry and desperate; meaning that compensation would be unlikely.

You can always compensate (or you will always be able to compensate). Whether the compensation is a simple task or a monetary compensation will have to be decided. Whether you will have to compensate when you have the means or later will have to be decided

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OdiousOutlaw wrote

We can send an email, letter or any other means to contact the bad guy.

That's naive. Where are you going to find this info? Does everyone have to have their contact info openly displayed under voluntaryist society?

Whether the compensation is a simple task

I'm not too keen on the idea of bringing indentured servitude back. Before you say anything about how that option isn't how everyone who can't afford to compensate will have to pay someone back, consider this: Why the fuck would any anarchist even consider the fact that it's on the table acceptable? Enslaving someone for stealing canned spam or whatever the fuck? That doesn't sound anarchist at all.

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Silver_ OP wrote

2 things :

How will justice work in an ancom system ?

  1. Is voluntary work slavery (even when both parties 100% agreed to it & are happy with it ?)

Is it slavery If I ask my father/brother/sister/cousin/neighbor...etc to help me clean my land in exchange of money ?

Are they better off, If they do it for free or for 0.01$/hour ?

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OdiousOutlaw wrote (edited )

How will justice work in an ancom system ?

Pfft. I wouldn't know. I'm not an ancom.

Is voluntary work slavery (even when both parties 100% agreed to it & are happy with it?) Is it slavery If I ask my father/brother/sister/cousin/neighbor...etc to help me clean my land in exchange of money ? Are they better off, If they do it for free or for 0.01$/hour ?

You must be confused. When I said that I wasn't into bringing indentured servitude back, I was referring to the fact that you seem to think that having someone perform work in compensation for stealing food was somehow acceptable. And that this system would somehow be compatible with anarchism. We have a fucking sub that deals in shoplifting (stealing), there's no way that shit would fly with anyone here.

Is it slavery If I ask my father/brother/sister/cousin/neighbor...etc to help me clean my land in exchange of money? Are they better off, If they do it for free or for 0.01$/hour ?

It isn't slavery if you ask a family member to help you with work, no. You are, however, a pretty lousy person to pay your own family members, friends, and/or neighbors a sweatshop rate in exchange for labor. You might as well just get rid of any pretense of payment and just ask them to do it as a personal favor. That's pretty much what mutual aid is. It is slavery if it's punishment for theft; I doubt you're paying the "bad guy" any money since they're compensating you.

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Silver_ OP wrote (edited )

Pfft. I wouldn't know. I'm not an ancom.

Then what is your "(anti)political" ideology, then ? What are the rules in your ideal (stateless?) society

I was referring to the fact that you seem to think that having someone perform work in compensation for stealing food was somehow acceptable.

Why is it unacceptable, I don't understand (especially If both parties agreed that It is an ok compensation)

Edit: I don't mind /f/shoplifting because I like "free speech" (the concept, not the legal "right" given by the state) . I find it pretty good when controversial topics are on internet.

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OdiousOutlaw wrote (edited )

Then what is your "(anti)political" ideology, then ? What are the rules in your ideal (stateless?) society

Ideology is useless. I don't indulge myself in dreaming up imaginary societies unless I'm writing fiction. If I had one in mind, it wouldn't have rules.

Why is it unacceptable, I don't understand (especially If both parties agreed that It is an ok compensation)

Are you at all aware of how easy it would be to get someone to agree with me if I used force, deception, and/or intimidation? If you stole from me and I somehow found you and got you to agree to compensating me? I'll give an example: I get a couple of guys to make sure you won't leave until you accept my terms (which, given the nature of this refutation, would be you working for me for however long I deem fit). You find the idea of working for me for 2 years unacceptable; I, in turn, mark up your punishment to 5 years and refuse to budge. Every attempt you make to talk me down leads to the price going up. You can't leave because my friends are blocking the way AND because if you do, you'd be leaving my negotiation; meaning you surrender your reputation and you risk having vigilantes stomping you out. If I get you to agree to serving me under those conditions, it's voluntary, but you were given an ultimatum, not a choice.

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Silver_ OP wrote

I get a couple of guys to make sure you won't leave until you accept my terms

Then act like If you were accepting the terms. Once you're outside you'll explain your situation to the community/world & this contract will be deemed invalid (against your will/you were cornered) .

you'd be leaving my negotiation

You can always negociate/renegociate later. Get out of this place, exit this "danger zone", go to safety.

you risk having vigilantes stomping you out

I hope that vigilantes are a minor part of society, but that's an unfortunate fact that may happen from time to time ESPECIALLY, WHEN YOU REFUSE COMPENSATING PEOPLE .

If I get you to agree to serving me under those conditions, it's voluntary

It's not voluntary, because you couldn't leave If you didn't say yes

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OdiousOutlaw wrote (edited )

Then act like If you were accepting the terms. Once you're outside you'll explain your situation to the community/world & this contract will be deemed invalid (against your will/you were cornered).

Naive. In this situation, the thief wouldn't believed; it's my word as the victim of theft over theirs as the thief. No one trusts "criminals" in this society, why would yours be any different? If anyone can break a contract later out of regret, then the contract compensation idea is worthless.

You can always negociate/renegociate later. Get out of this place, exit this "danger zone", go to safety.

No. You can't. That's why I brought the guys here; to make sure you couldn't leave.

I hope that vigilantes are a minor part of society, but that's an unfortunate fact that may happen from time to time ESPECIALLY, WHEN YOU REFUSE COMPENSATING PEOPLE.

You're missing the point. I'm saying that if you leave without accepting my terms, I could easily take advantage of the fact that vigilantes exist and could have them take care of you. It's the word of a thief against the word of the victim.

It's not voluntary, because you couldn't leave If you didn't say yes

It doesn't really matter. Under a voluntarist society, all contracts could only be nullified by the person being compensated; otherwise anyone could break free of the contract under any circumstance, so long as they aren't happy anymore. Which would be a freer system, but would render the point of compensation contracts useless. Which means no one has to compensate anyone.

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Silver_ OP wrote

Naive. In this situation, the thief wouldn't believed

I don't see why ? What does he gain by lying ? Nothing.

If anyone can break a contract later out of regret, then the contract compensation idea is worthless.

No, you are "free" to stop compensating, in the same way that you are "free" to not compensate. But It will have consequences...

Which means no one has to compensate anyone.

No one has a technical obligation to not rape, murder, rob and do other bad things like that, It will have consequences, however...

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OdiousOutlaw wrote (edited )

I don't see why ? What does he gain by lying ? Nothing.

The thief has a lot to gain, whether they're lying or not. If they're believed, they get out of having to compensate someone. Meaning they gained whatever they stole and faced no consequence for it.

No, you are "free" to stop compensating, in the same way that you are "free" to not compensate. But It will have consequences...

The fact that you put quotation marks around the word "free" proves a lot about voluntaryism and why anarchists consider it bad. Also, it was you who said:

If you are in a desert have a bottle of water & a mugger attacks you & steal the water, they will have to compensate you (sooner or later), regardless of their circumstances. If some people break your front door steal some food & run away, they will have to compensate you (sooner or later), regardless of their circumstances."

Keywords here being: have to. If I have to do something, it isn't autonomous; something is making me do it. Which is what anarchism opposes.

No one has a technical obligation to not rape, murder, rob and do other bad things like that, It will have consequences, however...

No one is advocating for a system that condones rape, murder, or robbery. You're advocating for (or at least defending) a society that uses a compensation-based justice system that runs on contracts formed on an individual basis. You've continued to defend this system even when I've pointed out that it doesn't fucking matter whether or not slave contracts are "voluntary" or not, because coercion and deception exist.To the anarchist focused forum of a website run and moderated by anarchists and socialists. I'm telling you that that system is either ripe for abuse or ineffective. Voluntaryism either requires that contracts cannot be nullified after an agreement is reached, in which case, it would thoroughly abused OR the contracts can be nullified by the person compensating, in which case, anyone can nullify the contract; so the contracts are essentially just worthless moral obligations that can be ignored with impunity. As I've stated in my first post.

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Silver_ OP wrote (edited )

If they're believed, they get out of having to compensate someone.

No, they will just "win" the "right" to renogociate the contract, nothing to gain, there.

The fact that you put quotation marks around the word "free" proves a lot about voluntaryism and why anarchists consider it bad.

Yeah, It's sad that criminals (who don't want to compensate their crimes/assume the consequences) are oppressed, but victims are living in heaven.

OR the contracts can be nullified by the person compensating, in which case, anyone can nullify the contract; so the contracts are essentially just worthless moral obligations that can be ignored with impunity

Yeah, but don't be surprised when you're ostracized or If you meet an angry vigilante "hero".

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OdiousOutlaw wrote

No, they will just "win" the "right" to renogociate the contract, nothing to gain, there.

Why the fuck would anyone want to renegotiate with someone who tried to enslave them? Why are you defending such a shitty framework for a justice system? Why the fuck does it feel like this conversation is going in circles?

Yeah, It's sad that criminals are oppressed, but victims are living in heaven.

I'm, like, 90% certain that this is sarcastic, but I'm really not sure with you. I'll just assume it is and move on.

Yeah, but don't be surprised when you're ostracized or If you meet an angry vigilante "hero".

Oh, fuck, more talk of ostracization and vigilantes. That's why this conversation is going in circles, you keep repeating the same shit without substance. Why would I be ostracized for not doing something that's optional and easily ignored? Do you think there's some stigma against not doing jury duty?

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Silver_ OP wrote

Why the fuck would anyone want to renegotiate with someone who tried to enslave them? Why are you defending such a shitty framework for a justice system?

They want to gain back their reputation to not be ostracized from people property.

Why would I be ostracized for not doing something that's optional and easily ignored?

Because I don't want thieves near my property, therefore I won't allow you to enter in my property. Maybe, I will be the only one doing this, who knows, but I am pretty convinced that other voluntaryists will think the same.

Do you think there's some stigma against not doing jury duty?

Is there stigma to smash someone's car and not pay for the damage ? Oh wait...

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OdiousOutlaw wrote (edited )

They want to gain back their reputation to not be ostracized from people property.

"People will want to be enslaved so that others will not think badly of them." This is fucking gold, lmao.

Because I don't want thieves near my property, therefore I won't allow you to enter in my property. Maybe, I will be the only one doing this, who knows, but I am pretty convinced that other voluntaryists will think the same.

It doesn't matter if you want thieves near your property. No one likes having their shit stolen. It really doesn't matter if you don't "allow" them into your property. What? You gonna stay in your house for the rest of your life, because you're afraid that someone will steal from you? Come the fuck on.

Is there stigma to smash someone's car and not pay for the damage ? Oh wait...

"Smashing a car and ignoring optional contracts for negotiation are the same thing." How do you miss the point this fucking often?

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Silver_ OP wrote (edited )

You gonna stay in your house for the rest of your life, because you're afraid that someone will steal from you

Or security cameras or pay guards to keep my home safe or better security doors...etc

"Smashing a car and ignoring optional contracts for negotiation are the same thing." How do you miss the point this fucking often?

My point was : you smashed the car, the owner want to negociate (so that we'll know how to compensate him/how much). You don't want to. You don't compensate.

Do you really think that there is no stigma to not fix when you break other people stuff ?

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ziq wrote

As a "bad guy", I'm telling you right now I'm just gonna kill you to save me the trouble of having to negotiate.

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shanc wrote

YOU JUST VIOLATED THE NAP!

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ziq wrote

I'm so excited for the ancap revolution so I can start ganking capitalists and not get locked up because there's no state to protect their asses.

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shanc wrote

I'm so excited for the ancap revolution so I can start ganking capitalists and not get locked up because there's no state to protect their asses

/u/Silver_ THIS PERSON IS NOT HONORING THE CONTRACT AND MUST BE SHAMED IMMEDIATELY DO NOT BUY GOODS AND OR SERVICES FROM ZIQ

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Silver_ OP wrote

Yeah, but don't be surprised when vigilantes want revenge & kill you.

Note: How will justice work in an ancom system : can you explain me, please ?

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ziq wrote

In my system: you try to exploit me for my labor, I kill you. You lay claim to more land than you can work yourself and thus exoloit others to work it for you, I kill you.

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Silver_ OP wrote (edited )

You lay claim to more land than you can work yourself and thus exoloit others to work it for you

Ok, so If I pay my brother to work my land for me, you will kill me ?

If I pay my son to work my land for me, you will kill me ?

If I pay a stranger, will you kill me ?

Even If It doesn't bother you at all and the other party was willing ?

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ziq wrote

Yes.

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Silver_ OP wrote

Are they better off, If they do it for free or for 0.01$/hour ?

Do you think that you improve the life of this family by killing me ?

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ziq wrote

  1. No one is going to labor for you for free.

  2. Yes.

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Silver_ OP wrote

Ok, does It mean that you will stop using anything that you haven't built yourself (because It is theft & immoral//You have more efficient/better alternatives) ?

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ziq wrote

A better alternative than you exploiting me to build things for you to profit from? Yes. Kill you and take the stuff you got by exploiting me.

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Silver_ OP wrote

Might as well call your ideology solipsism/"egoism" and become a raider/gang member.

take the stuff you got by exploiting me.

I haven't exploited you.

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ziq wrote

You exploited me the moment you violently hoarded land and resources and entered people into servitude to work it for you and defend it for you by denying them food, water and shelter unless they did your bidding. You are a state.

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Silver_ OP wrote

I never did this

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ziq wrote

Actually it's voluntary servitude because I let you eat dinner in exchange for doing backbreaking labor to make the very food I let you eat.. after taking 99% of it for myself.

Yeah.. Like all states you engage in doublespeak to avoid responsibility for your exploitation.

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Silver_ OP wrote

Ah I see, maybe you have a problem with bad deals, then ?

You want to outlaw bad deals, right ?

What If the deal was good for some people ? What If people are happy with the deal ?

Or do you think that value is objective and you are the one who gets to decide what is a good or bad deal ?

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ziq wrote

No I don't want to outlaw bad deals. I don't want to make any deals. I just want to kill you and burn down everything your slaves built for you.

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Silver_ OP wrote

Are you rioting all the time & looting in protests or smth

You don't want peace ? What do you want me to do ? What should I do, kill myself ?

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ziq wrote

Stop exploiting people for their labor. Stop hoarding more resources than you need when others have none. Stop branding people "bad" for taking what they need to survive from you when you took everything you have from them and people like them. Stop creating authority. Stop reproducing statism. Stop ruling people and land and constructing top-down systems where everyone is exploited by everyone above them.

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