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Some thoughts about veganism

Submitted by _________deleted in Anarchism

Anarchists claim to be anti-oppression. All oppressive behaviors are rejected.

And so I wonder what your stance is on the veganism?

  • Speciesism is obviously oppressive?

  • There is rampant misinformation regarding nutrition sponsored by food industries.

  • Governments sub corn crops for e.g. which cost more to grow than they can be sold for, expressly so they can be bought economically for animal feed.

  • Some poorer countries have difficulty feeding their people because they use their agricultural land growing crops to feed our cows (for export). They are also encouraged into deforestation to make way for the cows.

I could go on... There seems to be more than a few crossover points with anarchism and I was wondering if any anarchists were vegan/veggie for reasons similar to them being anarchists? If not why not?

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8

000 wrote

Great questions, I look forward to the responses. I found anarchism through veganism and I'm still learning about it.

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______deleted_ wrote

There is rampant misinformation regarding nutrition sponsored by food industries.

The entire concept of 'food groups' and the percentages we need to consume was invented by the various big ag industries.

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vacuousaptitude wrote (edited )

Including the suggestion to consume dairy every day. The majority of human beings cannot digest dairy. 3/4 black Americans, 1/2 Latinx Americans, and 95/100 Asian Americans cannot properly digest dairy. Which is normal, it's the default state of being.

The government suggesting that people of colour consume a food product, multiple times a day, knowing full well that it harms their health and lowers their quality of life is an incredible example of institutional racism.

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_ziq_ wrote (edited )

Really though, it makes no logical sense for humans to consume milk after infancy.

It's interesting that white people are less inclined to lactose intolerancy, I didn't know that.

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vacuousaptitude wrote

It's basically because drinking another animals milk is something mostly white people started doing, due to the whole winter thing causing a lack of availability of food for several months a year. Our ancestors most definitely got super sick on it for generations, but they kept eating it until they adapted because they didn't have many choices.

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ConfettiEggnog wrote

I was left with the impression that is the work of nutritionists playing doctors. Do you have any references?

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ziq_postcivver wrote

Governments sub corn crops for e.g. which cost more to grow than they can be sold for, expressly so they can be bought economically for animal feed.

This is the root cause of most of the environmental damage in the world today. Land is cleared to grow subsidised grains to feed livestock.

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vacuousaptitude wrote

Vegan, in large part because I realized it was incredibly hypocritical to support the horrific abuses against animals that I'm trying to stop from happening to humans. Seems like a no brainer.

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Naokotani wrote

I have been a vegetarian with strong vegan leanings for about 9 years(sometimes its just really hard, especially while travelling internationally). Before that I went through a stage where I hunted and raised my own animals because I wanted to be more aware of the process, but one day I killed some chickens and I saw their life flash before my eyes. I ate the pies that I made from those chickens (I had already killed them) and vowed never to eat meant again.

And yes, ultimately my reason for being vegetarian is similar to being an anarchist. I don't agree with the idea of pets either, and I think animals should be able to roam free with dignity. If a wild dog or cat (or whatever animal) chooses to live with humans then that is fine, but the idea of an animal being born and dying in captivity for any reason is just wrong.

I also think self liberation is as important aspect of anarchism, and compasion is often considered an important aspect of self liberation. That being said, I also think personal freedom is an important part of anarchism, so I don't see it as my responsibility to police the eating habits of others.

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ziq wrote

All my dogs and cats found me, they have a way of domesticating themselves.

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jadedctrl wrote

I agree with the latter three points (especially #4, which is to some degree inherent to our large-scale consumption of meat)-- but the first point, not so much.
Speciesism oppresses who, the animals? I don't care about animals too much, to be honest. I care mainly about how they affect humans, directly or indirectly.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote (edited )

I think that yes, speciesism is fucked, but there's probably a lot of disagreement around what that amounts to. I have two points on this that hopefully open my most important thoughts on the question.

  1. Veganism isn't necessarily the best way to be an anarchist, I think. Depending on where you live, and what processes it involves to get your veggies to you, there could be more harm in buying plant-based food than keeping chickens in your back yard, for example. Your particular context is everything and we got to be as informed as we can.

  2. Vegans are often racist and shitty as fuck. And this is not a simple accident. For many people an overwhelming desire to care for the nonhuman animals is bound up in not giving a fuck about dehumanised peoples. I think it's very hard not to be one of these shitty vegans if you're white and not actively working to smash your racism (for example) and participate in antiracist organising.

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vacuousaptitude wrote

Vegans are often racist and shitty as fuck. And this is not a simple accident. For many people an overwhelming desire to care for the nonhuman animals is bound up in not giving a fuck about dehumanised peoples.

Can I ask where you're getting this from? Of all the non-leftist groups I belong to vegans are the most likely to be leftist, radical, and anti oppression in all forms. I've never known a single vegan who was vegan because they don't care about oppressed humans. Normally it's the opposite, they become vegan because they are more compassionate to oppressed groups than others are. Because, let's be clear, non-human animals are by far and away the most oppressed group on earth right this moment.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

It comes from years of life among anarchist vegans and poc in two of the most racist countries in the world. in both of them, it's commonstance to understand a white vegan as fundamentally suspicious as a standard among radical poc.

Adopting a position of leftist, radical, or anti-oppression in all forms has no necessary relation to how much you tackle your deep, many-layered internalised racism. The way our racism comes with its own learned invisibility means that huge swathes of leftists and radicals and whatever are racist in very substantial ways.

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vacuousaptitude wrote

Interesting, not all together surprising a lot of people suck at checking their privilege I just find it interesting that you associate it with veganism. Do you think it's important to challenge speciesism?

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

As I said, speciesism is fucked. So yes, it's important to challenge it.

https://mediadiversified.org/2015/12/16/veganism-has-a-serious-race-problem/ https://veganvoicesofcolor.org/2017/01/09/dismantling-white-veganism/ http://www.dailytexanonline.com/2017/04/04/vegans-must-feed-everyone-not-just-wealthy-white-people https://strivingwithsystems.com/2017/03/08/why-are-white-vegans-shook-when-you-talk-about-white-supremacy-and-capitalism-btw-they-should-be/ http://www.coreyleewrenn.com/the-white-privilege-in-vegan-moral-superiority/

These are just a few links from the first page of the first google search i did.

I know that there are places in europe where veganism is even outright associated with white supremacist groups. I've had comrades from france visit and their first assumption when they see vegans is that they are nazis. fortunately that's not the case where I live but, as I've said, there's a non-accidental link between much veganism and racism.

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redacted wrote

I think my fear of accidentally ingesting human meat containing abnormal prions is my ultimate justification for a strict vegetarian diet. I'm not certain about whether or not I want to try sticking to a vegan diet but I think I could easily be convinced.

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ConfettiEggnog wrote

So step one: stop the subventions.

That can't be achieved by talk alone. Because you get to stop say the subvention to corn, yet some other power group will start subventions for peanuts.

You do that by taking money away from the officials. Smaller budgets also means not enough money for any grandiose pyramid to entomb the glorious president.

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foggymorn wrote (edited )

I don't see what worker self management has to do with veganism tbh. If we rejected all oppressive behaviors, we wouldn't be able to fight a revolution against the rich.

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theblackcat wrote

Anarchism is about a lot more than worker self management, especially in a world where work is automated. Killing oppressors isn't oppressive, it's self defence.

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foggymorn wrote

Then eating meat is self defence against hunger.

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zod wrote

I don't take people seriously if they argue that carnism isn't oppressive tbh.

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__deleted_ wrote

Agreed. Veganism is completely ineffective at affecting the meat industry anyway.

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theblackcat wrote

How do you figure? If there are 10 million less people buying meat, you think the supermarkets are going to continue stocking 10 million more carcasses than people are buying?

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__deleted_ wrote

Meat is heavily subsidized in the US, so yes.

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theblackcat wrote

They don't subsidise meat so it sits on the shelf and rots, the subsidies only cover meat that gets sold. Supermarkets aren't going to stock something that doesn't sell, regardless of the low price they pay for it compared to the prices internationally.

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WhereIsMyFreeStuff wrote

But thats not the point. If I can avoid the oppressive structures of carnism by living vegan then its relevant to my anarchism.

I have no illusions that my individual consumer descisions have any effect on the industry, changing the system significantly from within is almost impossible without massive pressure.

Veganism is an entirely moral descision for me.

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ConfettiEggnog wrote

When the speaker is one vegan individual against 10 000 meat eaters and the government is conspiring with the farmers to grow national crops and raise national cattle with the taxpayer money, including the taxes took from the said vegan.

When the system changes to eliminate the subventions, and the people understand the abuse it is going to be 8 000 vegans against 60 disgusting farmers and some 20 sadists working at the slaughter house.