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ziq OP wrote

I think that's just Bookchin's strawman.

What dumpster-diving vegan bike punks have you met that aren't deeply empathetic and constantly fighting for revolution? They live like that because they care, and are constantly trying to get others to join them so they can collectively rise up.

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this_one wrote

This is exactly why I hate facebook pages that decry vegans because 'you need to dismantle the whole system'.

The vegans I know do far more to achieve that than any facebook meme page admins do. I find you don't really get many people who actually care about climate change or the meat industry or whatever who aren't also vegan. "They live like that because they care" is so beautifully put.

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ziq OP wrote

It's just an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for your actions

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haystacks_ wrote

I am in no way suggesting they don't care. Hell, that's almost me. But fighting for revolution ought to be central to the thoughts and actions of the individual, whether it be through teaching or direct actions. I think that's what differentiates it from a liberal mindset, and, in turn, the "no ethical consumption" argument.

As for Bookchin's strawman, I'll concede that point. I was just being hyperbolic because it's early and I want to go back to sleep.

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ziq OP wrote

I think fighting for revolution means different things to different people. To me it has nothing to do with fighting for a global industrial society like it does to most people here.

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haystacks_ wrote

Truth. I split with the an-coms and an-syns for the same reason. Because all these destructive systems in place will be romantically fixed once the same production-oriented models are worker-controlled. It may be nicer than now, but it will still foretell ecological catastrophe.

Plus I just don't like the fethishization of labor and work that is so common with Marxist/communistic ideologies.

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

They essentially advocate for the exact same system as capitalism (workers, factories, battery farms, globalisation, ecocide) but "more egalitarian" (direct democracy and equal share of the industrialist pie).

Which is the exact accusation they fling at their "lifestylist" bogeyman; accusing us of somehow conforming to the system (by struggling against it) while insisting we abandon our hard-fought battles and join them in waiting for a more egalitarian industrialism that'll give us a fairer share of the profits gained from waging war on nature.

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BuffyTheFascistSlayer wrote

I don't know why anyone would cling to the institution of work. Marxists are like abused wives who stick with their scumbag husbands.

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