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nijntje wrote

I think mostly people tend to see them as very intertwined. And about 'earning' or not, people debate a lot but afaik… well… consider it like a chicken/egg problem, it's interesting to debate and talk about, but the fact is that if you've got a chicken now, or an egg now, you'll have the other either right with it or at least following up very soon. So it's better to make sure chickens & eggs keep happening, and thinking about which leads to what is secondary. It'd be like debating the physics of how parachutes work while you've just jumped off a plane—sure it's interesting, but you know that if you pull the cord stuff will happen, and you want that to happen.

that being said I come from a christian background, but fairly diverse in terms of denominations/thoughts so maybe that's just the way i've seen it, seeing a lot of different opinions.