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soylentbomb wrote

I don't accept that as fact, but I think that's a bit outside the scope of conversation.

Taking that as true, then, how is any anarchism possible if such a pervasive hierarchy is insurmountable?

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ziq_postcivver wrote

The point (for green anarchists) is to reject lifestyles that increase hierarchy and exploitation. Resuse and repurpose rather than extracting more resources to attain a disnonnected and fleeting luxury at the expense of life.

Building an ideology around perpetual technological advancement is ground that's been well travelled under capitalism. Maintaining any kind of anarchy under a system based on industrial advancenent would be an uphill battle to say the least.

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soylentbomb wrote

The point (for green anarchists) is to reject lifestyles that increase hierarchy and exploitation.

I would sincerely hope that any anarchist would be attentive to how their conceptualization of anarchism interacts with the world beyond society. See also my reply to u/Pop.

Resuse and repurpose rather than extracting more resources to attain a disnonnected and fleeting luxury at the expense of life.

Agreed. I'm honestly not sure if this is supposed to be a counterpoint.

Building an ideology around perpetual technological advancement is ground that's been well travelled under capitalism.

Not necessarily essential to transhumanism, nor is any 'perpetual' ground well-travelled. The rhetoric of capitalism may try to conflate perpetual increases in returns on investment with technoprogressivism, but that doesn't quite make it so.

Maintaining any kind of anarchy under a system based on industrial advancenent would be an uphill battle to say the least.

Well worth the effort, in my opinion, considering the alternative is orders of magnitude less populous, shorter lived, and less diverse.

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ziq_postcivver wrote (edited )

I would sincerely hope that any anarchist would be attentive to how their conceptualization of anarchism interacts with the world beyond society.

However much anarcho-transhumanists want these things to be non exploitative, words are meaningless when you realize industrialism was, is, and will be oppressing, starving and killing billions of people worldwide.

What does anarcho-transhumanism offer in way of action? How will your small group; that for all intents and purposes only exists on obscure internet forums, stand up to capitalist industrialism as it continues to lead the way to apocalypse?

What use is it advocating for egalitarian reform when all the science shows us we've gone far past the point of no return and no amount of reform is going to save us now? If we don't abolish industrialism, our children won't have a planet left. Reforming industrialism at this point is like trying to reform capitalism. It's too late. Mass-scale industry is a brutal dead end. Most of the technologies anarcho-transhumanists envision require mass-scale industry.

Not necessarily essential to transhumanism, nor is any 'perpetual' ground well-travelled. The rhetoric of capitalism may try to conflate perpetual increases in returns on investment with technoprogressivism, but that doesn't quite make it so.

I honestly don't understand this. I've read a lot of antranshumanist lit and it's very apparent that the goal is to evolve humanity through technology. That means the technology needs to keep advacing. I don't like when people use such vague definitions of their ideologies so that discussion about goals becomes impossible. Praxis is all that matters. Words are cheap.

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soylentbomb wrote

industrialism was, is, and will be oppressing, starving and killing billions of people worldwide.

When in service to the state, capitalism, etc, yes. I don't consider them inseparable.

What use is it advocating for egalitarian reform when all the science shows us we've gone far past the point of no return and no amount of reform is going to save us now?

You've read what you wanted to hear into the scientific consensus - go re-familiarize yourself with it. Also, that's terrible abuse of the word "reform."

Good job arguing against anarchism in general, though.

I've read a lot of antranshumanist lit

There isn't a lot of "antranshumanist" lit to read yet. Were you reading general transhumanist lit? How were you determing what bits were or were not relevant to anarchotranshumanism?

it's very apparent that the goal is to evolve humanity through technology.

Many would consider that a goal. The goal is a better world. There's a reason so much transhumanist discussion is about things other than modifying the human body and mind - e.g. existential risk analysis, nonhuman animal personhood, bioethical abolitionism, etc.

I don't like when people use such vague definitions of their ideologies so that discussion about goals becomes impossible.

The trick to anarchotranshumanism being less vague is to stop ignoring the anarchism part, and stop focusing exclusively on the speculative part of transhumanism.

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Pop wrote

I think that's a bit outside the scope of conversation.

For (green) anarchists, this is the conversation (among other things), so to assume that it isn't is to ignore the critique being made in the first place

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soylentbomb wrote (edited )

I meant that my reasons for rejecting it:

  • that exploitation is a condition that exists between conscious things and thus "the environment" need not be exploited as an ethically meaningful consequence of resource gathering,
  • that effective scarcity is not inescapable, and
  • that resources exist beyond where people already live

are out of scope, not the question itself.

I was attempting to not tangent too far off the "eugenics" topic.