Submitted by SnowyKnave in Anarchism

so recently I read dugins foundations of geopolitics, mostly out of spite. Im not going to give a review or analysis because i didnt like the book at all, but it brought up some questions.

the main premise of the book was examining the conflict between the “west”, and its way of life atlanticism, and the “east”, where its way of life is centered around the continent and the earth. of course this is largely essentialist bs, but there is some truth to how western institutions and “civilisations” were historically spread through sea and air rather than through ground invasions, and the wests reliance on trade through the ocean, as opposed to how russia/china largely expanded via the continent.

well anyway the book details how in the cold war the west encircled the soviet union like a great serpent to constrict and reduce the east, and labels this as the leviathan, while naming the east as the behemoth. (As in from christian mythology). This has an unexpected parallel to my mind with anticiv, and how the system is labelled a leviathan.

the book presents the conflict between the leviathan and the behemoth as a natural inevitability, and uses nationalist rhetoric to justify this and “defense of the homeland” stuffs, and then talking about what russia could do in the future.

well I guess the key questions i have is:

Why do you think dugins leviathan and the anticiv leviathan are so similar comparisons to make? I doubt dugin has read fredy perlman or much anarchist literature, but i also dont think its a simple coincidence that the same structure was called a leviathan by 2 political movements.

What do you think conflicts between the West and East (as geopolitical groups) are going to do in the future? Are they simply conflicts between the bourgeoisie as some people like to imagine, or is there a much deeper conflict going on?

Sorry if this is the wrong place.

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sadie_killer wrote (edited )

using leviathan as a metaphor for civilisation usually comes from hobbes, rather than people coming up with it independently

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Lettuce wrote

nah I just think leviathan is super generic and is immensly popular (from the bible) that ideas of leviathan are verywhere. Not really a lot interesting to infer other than anarchism is deeply rooted in christian stuff so no suprise another idea deeply routed in christian ideas would explain the world in christian terms and biblical fights.

They both come from the same origin christian so its no real suprise

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SnowyKnave OP wrote

yeah I guess that makes sense. i always get the feeling anarchism is still really western and christian despite its supposed rejection of both, but decolonizing your own head is really hard/impossible aha

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Lettuce wrote

yeah its better and relatively aware of itself. But it most certainly makes progress and is good enough at addresssing the oppressive roots and baggage that it has a lot of history in anti colonial movments Mexico, Philipines and to a lesser extent indonesia.

I definetly think its a massive issue and not something that can be solved quickly or easily. The idea of how to get away from christian ideas is really difficult bc christianity is so pervasive.

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SnowyKnave OP wrote

One thought I keep on having about this topic is how anarchy is a rejection and resistance of all authority and hierarchy - which I agree with.

But isnt it also imperialist (authoritarian) to go to some indigenous people on the other side of the world and reject the authorities they have too. Im not saying “No gods no masters (except if theyre non western)” but anarchy has a sorta totalitarianish side to it also. kinda hard to describe.

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Bezotcovschina wrote

People that go to indigenous people on the other side of the world and reject the authorities they have are not anarchists

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SnowyKnave OP wrote

yeah that was kinda my point. sorry if that wasnt clear.

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Lettuce wrote

Yeah I think mainstream conceptions of anarchism are colonialist in that they want some global hegemonic society. Which is bc they have the same desires of many colonists in the broad sense. Anti colonial anarchy isn't interested in going to places you don't belong and switching over cultures and stuff. Why would I care if there is authority where I don't live and don't know anyone.

Sure generally I'd prefer it not exist but I'm not going to go on an anarcho crusade. I think this issue is countered by acting in ones personal contexts. Trying to get a national or global hegemony of anti authority is colonialist so ur vibe is right.

It's stopped by only catering about personal context and not moral crusades. Though absolutely the moral crusader type is most popular. Which fun fact many colonies in the Americas were started by socialists because they wanted to turn the place into an commi utopia.

I definitely see this as probably one of the biggest issues with anarchism. Hence why I think stuff like anti civ is important because it talks about how industrialization needs the global hegemony of moral crusades and colonialism to function at all.

But yeah most anarchist definitely don't have desires to actively further colonialism just are in denial about it

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SnowyKnave OP wrote (edited )

Colonies in the Americas were started by socialists

Doesnt in the least surprise me.

Sure generally I'd prefer it not exist but I'm not going to go on an anarcho crusade. I think this issue is countered by acting in ones personal contexts. Trying to get a national or global hegemony of anti authority is colonialist so ur vibe is right.

You put this way better than I did.

But I also think just acting in someones personal context can be petty, self-centred and shitty. Take the idk deforestation of the Amazon, the ongoing genocide in Gaza or the recent ethnic cleansing in Tanzania. These dont really have much of an impact on me, especially in the short term and are very far from personal, but I also think acting on these issues, talking about them ect is really important. That isnt to say that I want to go on a moralist crusade or whatever, but because theyre not directly in my personal context doesnt mean I should ignore them either. This is a really hard issue imo.

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SnowyKnave OP wrote

Oh also something else interesting. Because i read the book online i didnt see this but apparently the cover of the book was a chaos star. such a weird symbol for a fascist to use imo

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Lettuce wrote

not really weird to me. Fashisism has lots and lots of magickal currents. Like its probably one of the most mystical magick euro ideologies. Chaos magick doesn't really have an explicit politics to it so it works just as good for fash.

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SnowyKnave OP wrote (edited )

Ah I just didnt think of the star in a esoteric magic context and more in a anarchist context. Also i guess the book is about rebellion (against America). Makes a lot more sense in that light.

Even so, in a book about the importance of “eurasian values” like cohesion and preservation it seems kinda weird to invoke chaos magic. I guess fascists arent known for consistency though.

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Crown_of_Ice wrote

Fascists stealing symbols is woven into the fabric of reality it seems. I want Pepe and the ok symbol back already.

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roanoke10 wrote

Afaik, dugin uses a variant where the spokes are different lengths, four longer and four shorter, alternating.

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uanon wrote (edited )

there is some truth to how western institutions and “civilisations” were historically spread through sea and air rather than through ground invasions, and the wests reliance on trade through the ocean, as opposed to how russia/china largely expanded via the continent

Quick counterpoint: Mongol attempted invasions of Japan over sea, Japanese colonization of Hokkaido, Ryukyu, China and Korea over sea, Russian colonization of Alaska, etc.

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SnowyKnave OP wrote

very true and in hindsight I think its more nationalist essentialism.

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roanoke10 wrote

Idk how i started dugin character analogies- i wanted to talk about leviathon creatures in season six of supernatural- they're a fash analogy.

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roanoke10 wrote

Rigid hierarchy, corporate asthetic and they just live to consume everything with their giant mouths. Leaders name is dick roman and their punishment for failure to follow orders is to bib themselves- eat their whole body with own giant maw and wink out of existence.

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SnowyKnave OP wrote

Ive never seen the show, is it worth watching?

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roanoke10 wrote

Its a big commitment, but i really liked it- season 1-2 is good 3-5 great, 6-15 ikr 15!, is very mixed but grew on me.

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