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Bezotcovschina wrote

not be vegan (or at least freegan)

At least? I always perceived freegans as higher beings myself.

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ziq wrote (edited )

I think that's just a cop out. An animal's body isn't being wasted because you're not consuming it. Living beings aren't for your consumption. Just treating captivity, death and suffering as a product, whether you pay for it or not, is gross

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Ishkah wrote (edited )

For me putting the time into dumpster diving bread with whey in it is absolutely me better achieving a goal I decided I wanted to take on with veganism, that of wanting to relate to the world with more compassion.

Seeing animal material from farms always brings the sadness closer to mind of the cruel lives animals live on farms. But, I just would feel that I'd be treating the animal with less dignity letting any of their final remains rot in dumpsters when the material has been used in items like bread similar to the vegan bread that I would otherwise go out and buy.

Eating that animal material for me is about treating the animals’ final remains more similar to the way the animals’ wild ancestors would have been treated after death. So, with more dignity than the way we bred infantile traits into them and with more dignity than the toxic relationship we would be perpetuating by anthropomorphically infantilising them as infant humans who could have grown up to be people who could suffer a worse quality of life worrying about how other people might intend to treat their body after their death.

Further reading on my position:

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ziq wrote (edited )

but why consume something as empty of nutrients and destructive to the ecosystem as bread when there are wild mallows and mustards growing right next to that dumpster? doesn't your body deserve better than stale death?

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Ishkah wrote

I'm 6ft 3 and cycle everywhere, a sandwich with wholemeal bread as a snack is a cheap tasty way of getting my carbs in. It might be that I should stop buying it for ecological reasons and crop deaths, but that's not an argument against dumpster diving it.

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ziq wrote (edited )

It is when you can choose different free food that's just as readily available and far more nutritious. It's not like you're starving.

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Ishkah wrote (edited )

So the mere sadness I feel about crop deaths that happen in the production of bread should prevent me from dumpster diving bread otherwise I'm not truly relating to wildlife with dignity?

Me dumpster diving lots of edible material is fast and means money saved on buying food, which means I don't have to work to earn as much money, which means I have more time I can put into projects I care about like environmental ones. If I was growing a food forest and dumpster diving it would mean I could give away more food I've grown or leave more to wildlife. So, for me, all of that is relating to the wildlife that died in crop deaths with more dignity than I would be if I was leaving perfectly edible material in triple wrapped plastic in the trash.

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kore wrote

Living beings aren't for your consumption

Interesting to me that you say "living beings" and not "animals" here. Was this intentional to include plants, fungi etc.? If so, how do you integrate this mindset into the will to live? I've struggled with it a lot recently, how do I treat plant foods in a non-commodified way. The best I've come up with so far is that it's mutual aid, we help propagate the plants in exchange for some of their bodies and/or yield.

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256 wrote

The more animals you let kill, exploit and consume, the more plants are consumed.

Plants don't feel pain.

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rattledlove1139 wrote

But that still is something under study if plants feel pain, i thought
Would not be something we understand with our flesh and blood and nervous systems different from plants, that's why still under study, but I don't think entirely impossible. Plants send distress signals and move and communicate too, also complex little beings.
I rather remember and be grateful for all beings that give up time energy or life to produce my food, human workers too, than worry about what life forms can or can't feel pain and try live with that. Because we don't know for certain, and some day could prove very very wrong.

Right now not much food comes without harm someone or something somewhere on the way... workers or plants or animals or land herself. It is very much worth and in need to change but not worth to hurt and berate yourself over if someday something you thought true turns out wrong

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moonlune wrote

Plants don't feel pain any more than a computer feels pain.

Because we don't know for certain, and some day could prove very very wrong.

We do know for certain that animals do feel pain though.

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rattledlove1139 wrote

Not saying not just my point is if someone is vegan specifically because animals feel pain but plants do not, some day understanding of that might change and then what? Eat nothing? even animal studies on pain and emotion still relatively new let alone plant life. Nothing against people choose to cut out any category product just i think reason should be more than about cutting out who can feel pain. Human workers feel pain too, and they're involved no matter what you eat

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256 wrote

The more animals you let kill, exploit and consume, the more plants are consumed.

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