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[deleted] wrote on March 4, 2022 at 1:50 PM

Bezotcovschina OP wrote on March 4, 2022 at 1:57 PM

My personal opinion: every time one says “Fuck NATO” or “End NATO expansion” in the context of Eastern Europe - they are working for Putin. That's not lazy - that's truth. In my personal opinion

loukanikos wrote on March 5, 2022 at 10:23 AM

I'm not an expert on NATO history by any means but I whole heartedly disagree. The fatal flaw in this line of reasoning, as I see it, is that just because something serves a useful purpose or is necessary -- as NATO and it's expansion has and is -- does not mean it's above criticism.

This is similar to the "oh you think we should improve society somewhat, yet you participate in society" argument.

To accept that NATO expansion was good simply because it helped certain people at a certain time is to accept a lack or originality and innovation in world politics and diplomacy.

You know what else helps a lot of people, saves untold millions of lives? Antibiotics, fossil fuels, synthetic fertilizer. Can those things also be the cause of our downfall as a species? Absolutely. Everything is good until it's not anymore. Its up to us as critical thinkers to imagine new world systems and new ways of living instead of just continuing old ones because they're there.

NATO and it's expansion in the 90s was a classic example of Statists just pursuing a continuation of an existing, cold war era policy when the moment called for something new and better.

Am I speaking from a place of privilege here? Definitely. Do I have the benefit of a quarter century of retrospect? Surely. Does that mean I should shut the fuck up? I think not. To accept the status quo of the international ststem as the best possible outcome is in my view not just unimaginative but perhaps a betrayal of our duty to recognize the failings of statism.

Bezotcovschina OP wrote on March 5, 2022 at 3:58 PM

Yes, great points.

[deleted] wrote on March 4, 2022 at 2:02 PM

[deleted] wrote on March 4, 2022 at 8:58 PM

[deleted] wrote on March 4, 2022 at 9:01 PM (edited on March 4, 2022 at 9:02 PM)

[deleted] wrote on March 4, 2022 at 9:18 PM

[deleted] wrote on March 4, 2022 at 9:25 PM (edited on March 4, 2022 at 9:27 PM)

fortmis wrote on March 4, 2022 at 11:40 PM

is there not a way to criticize NATo without being a trumper or using the west as a scapegoat?

[deleted] wrote on March 5, 2022 at 12:20 AM (edited on March 5, 2022 at 12:28 AM)

fortmis wrote on March 5, 2022 at 4:04 AM

wouldn't additional countries joining NATO mean that its existing members carry less responsibility when it comes to getting involved militarily? i.e. if more countries are enlisted to send troupes, then germany, say, wouldn't be required to send as many... the burden is shared. it is an economical alliance as much as it is militaristic, no? and joining NATO doesn't just grant you a promise from the big guys to defend you in war -- it also requires you to contribute to that defense mechanism.

i'm confused as to whether NATO "needs to exist," let alone whether its expansion is beneficial. I can't see anything wrong with independent countries making alliances, but hasn't it been made abundantly clear that NATO... just the idea of NATO has become a symbolic weapon on the geopolitical stage, and that appears to be more offensive than defensive? Am I wrong to take it for granted that NATO is synonymous with american imperialism? And wouldn't it be prudent to criticize all imperialist players in this war, in favour/in defense of the Ukrainian people?

i annoyingly phrase these statement all as questions because that is their current standing in my mind rn... they have not been granted tenure yet

fortmis wrote on March 5, 2022 at 4:37 AM

i just reread the article... so it seems that the temporary answer to why nato needs to exist is that it is protecting certain countries from russian imperialism. yes. what about long term?

[deleted] wrote on March 5, 2022 at 9:57 AM

fortmis wrote on March 5, 2022 at 5:56 PM

I hear you. And it brings the issue of NATO and Ukraine even more into question. What was the point of NATO dangling the promise of membership in front of Ukraine's face, aggravating a war mongering tyrant with it, and then refusing to get involved once the whole thing exploded? It makes the whole thing feel like it had nothing to do with offering Ukraine protection, or limiting Russia's imperial power.

If I was pulling the gross "yeah but what was she wearing" card, I'd need to be talking about Ukraine, but I think it's obvious that Ukraine's been fucked over by both sides. My concern is that I think the west is refusing to acknowledge the ways in which it has helped escalate the situation. obviously the blame of invasion lies completely with russia. But if NATO was really shield that you claim it to be, then wtf just happened?

I've come to realize the role NATO plays in protecting former soviet countries. ANd it's a good point you make -- if NATO was truly the imperialist machine that I see it as, then why stand by and do nothing while Ukraine is bombarded? I have some understanding of your points, however I'm left feeling that in relation to Ukraine, NATO is neither good at offering the protection you say it is meant to offer, nor is it good at being the imperialist power I say it has become....

[deleted] wrote on March 5, 2022 at 7:04 PM (edited on March 5, 2022 at 7:08 PM)

fortmis wrote on March 5, 2022 at 8:47 PM (edited on March 5, 2022 at 8:48 PM)

lots of helpful info here.

(ask Georgia about this, though)

brb asking Georgia

So if you want to find a fault with the West, then this is it: Its refusal to get involved militarily in the current conflict (and in 2014 when this whole mess started).

you say this but then you say this:

Do we start a nuclear war out of a principle, or do we wait and hope this somehow resolves itself? Quite smartly, I would say, the US decided to wait and not get involved just yet.

is this not a contradiction?

[deleted] wrote on March 5, 2022 at 9:24 PM

fortmis wrote on March 5, 2022 at 11:52 PM

ya what the hell is going on with the russian army. started watching this and just ended up feeling a broad hopelessness ...
we've outgrown war. war peaked in the first quarter of the 20th C and now it just feels like such a ridiculous waste of everything. apparently there are russian troops abandoning their tanks... no one wants this to be happening except old-world oligarchs who've severed themselves so thoroughly from reality, they probably wouldn't even notice if we dumped them on mars.

[deleted] wrote on March 6, 2022 at 12:02 AM

fortmis wrote on March 6, 2022 at 12:09 AM

jesus. i wonder if russia is trying to get armenia involved too.

kin wrote on March 6, 2022 at 12:14 AM

It went like this:
The buildings tumbled in on themselves
Mothers clutching babies picked through the rubble
And pulled out their hair

granite wrote on March 4, 2022 at 11:37 PM

Probably why many say Trump is the devil. Didn't he attempt to pull USA out of NATO?

You can see why now. NATO is like bringing a nerf gun to a slaughter house full of loose hogs.