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ziq wrote (edited )

Why are you so concerned with 'the left'? Are you an anarchist or a politician?

w/leftism

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Sid_Knee OP wrote (edited )

I’m an anarchist. I adapted that from a piece by leftists. I think the argument stands for anarchist circles as much as the left. Is the anarchist movement not a movement for the working class and should be by the working class?

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ziq wrote (edited )

No because that would exclude non workers. But regardless, being a worker doesn't mean you need to support the left wing of government.

"We may conclude without fear that the revolutionary formula cannot be Direct Legislation, nor Direct Government, nor Simplified Government, that it is No Government. Neither monarchy, nor aristocracy, nor even democracy itself, in so far as it may imply any government at all, even though acting in the name of the people, and calling itself the people.

No authority, no government, not even popular, that is the Revolution. Direct legislation, direct government, simplified government, are ancient lies, which they try in vain to rejuvenate. Direct or indirect, simple or complex, governing the people will always be swindling the people. It is always man giving orders to man, the fiction which makes an end to liberty; brute force which cuts questions short, in the place of justice, which alone can answer them; obstinate ambition, which makes a stepping stone of devotion and credulity..."

The idea of anarchists being left-wing was a ridiculous oxymoron until USAmerican Democrats like Bookchin and Chomsky decided they were anarchists.

Neither of the wings of government are anarchist.

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Sid_Knee OP wrote

that's a strawman. I haven't called for government. I used an article about the middle class in left-wing spaces to suggest this is also a problem in anarchist circles. Anarchism historically is a working class movement born from the socialist movement. Chumpsky isn't an anarchist and I don't think he has even ever claimed to be one.

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ziq wrote

It's not a strawman to explain what left wing means.

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Sid_Knee OP wrote

It's a strawman to imply I was calling for government

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ziq wrote (edited )

You can't copy/paste extracts from an essay by some DSA nerd who is calling for their fellow Democrat party members to ignore 'woke' issues (the example given being calls to defund the police) because it alienates the working class (and thus diminishes the left wing's ability to win elections), and then claim it's a strawman when I call the left govermentalist.

The left is governmentalist and so is anyone who asks people to ignore anything that distracts "the institutions of the left" from matters of class. Class is all that matters to Marxists, not anarchists.

Fuck the institutions of the left and fuck police apologists who try to use identity politics to shame people into supporting funding of the police (the Marxist Democrat you're quoting).

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Sid_Knee OP wrote

I deliberately left the bits out that you are talking about as my concentration was what they were saying about the middle class in working class spaces, so I honestly don’t know why you are bothering to bring them up. Class doesn’t matter to anarchists? Really? How else can you have a criticism of capitalism without talking about class.

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ziq wrote (edited )

For someone that accuses me of building strawmen, you really have a knack for strawmanning.

"Class isn't all that matters" not "class doesn't matter".

Clown.

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Sid_Knee OP wrote

this is what you said: "Class is all that matters to Marxists, not anarchists", I misunderead as class matters to marxists not anarchists so apologies, but I'm glad to see you think class does matter. So you see class not as an economic relationship then, but just an identity? Genuine question. As for clown...meh...I been called worse

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ziq wrote

he fails to ask whether the call to defund the police is even supported by the working-class black and brown people

Gallup poll indicated that 81 percent of black people wanted police to spend as much or more time in their area. Since then, we have seen a black former police captain win the mayorship of New York City, with substantial support from black voters

Support for the referendum was significantly higher among white liberals than among black voters — only 14 percent of whom wanted to see a reduction in the size of the police force 

Identity politics.

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Sid_Knee OP wrote (edited )

I selected the ideas around the middle class in working class spaces because that was the part of the article I was interested in. So far you have ignored that and keep going on about bits I didn’t bring up. Mebbe I should make myself clearer. Just because I referenced select pieces from that article doesn’t mean I endorse the whole article. I should have said that right at the beginning I guess. Btw the article is an argument against the use of identity politics to solely form your movement

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Sid_Knee OP wrote

…and what do you mean by non-workers?

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ziq wrote

People who don't have jobs.

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Sid_Knee OP wrote

you mean like the queen of england and the other members of the parasite class?

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