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Esperaux OP wrote

Thanks for the suggested source. I think my main information on anticiv mainly comes from "Take What You Need and Compost The Rest" which at many points seems to be very much in line with solarpunk perspectives. I genuinely think the so called divide between solarpunk and anticiv mainly comes through miscommunications and a clash of optimistic and pessimistic personalities. I think the above video is actually a very good introductory into this.

Also Ted started leaning towards Maoism now? I think last I heard through someone having mail correspondence with them that they became more vocally critical of eco nationalists at least.

I think it is fair to say solarpunk has its risks with cooptation just as much as anticiv or any other nature movement can in regards to more unhelpful movements.

Also on the transphobia and ablelism accusations on primitivism I think folk like Zerzan came out in opposition to transphobia. With a lot of the discussion being more around the overall abolition of gender. Though I have noticed in my own interactions there are indeed people who use the disguise of primitivism to mask the fact they simply embrace the return to tradition narrative.

Also yes I agree internet is extremely horrible for discussing opposing views. On the ground discussion is definitely a lot more productive or at least voice discussions. It's hard for me to read people through online discussion so I could very much be misunderstanding the overall intentions people may have. I would like to specifically state however my intention overall is not to attack anticivs. A lot of terminology I use may also give off the wrong impression but to try and be as specific as possible my overall stance is that I think solarpunk and anticiv are not as different as they are made out to be, that primitivism would exist under the communist mode of production with "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", and that simply collectivizing the means of production is collectivist not communist. I also think social ecology is indeed a valuable concept to apply to anarchistic principles since it highlights the importance of how we structure ourselves and how that reflects onto how we interpret and treat the environment around us.


ziq wrote

my main information on anticiv mainly comes from "Take What You Need and Compost The Rest"

That's postciv


Esperaux OP wrote (edited )

Oh I didn't know that. I actually just checked and funnily enough saw you provided a previous explanation on the difference between the two too. So would it be safe to describe post civ as the non-primitivist anticiv approach? If that is the case too would post civ not be similar to solarpunk types advocating not just simply current society but with solar panels but actively rethinking how we view ourselves in terms of things like production, consumption, and organization? I apologize in advance if I have been bugging you on about this I don't mean to just hassle you for every little thing but I am trying to do better to listen and learn from others when possible.


ziq wrote (edited )

btw if you're looking at old threads from 3-4 years ago where i (ziq) talked about postciv, you should know my defasher user account was a lot more honest about my actual politics at that time. the ziq account was my nice welcome to raddle fluffy admin account (so it promoted postciv) while defasher was more unrestrained and unapologetically anticiv.

when raddle was new i tried to be nice to leftists and even tankies so they wouldn't shun me (and by extension, raddle) for being a green nihilist, but i no longer care to cater to people who would march me to the wall at the first opportunity


Esperaux OP wrote

Understandable. I don't think anything good really comes from aligning with or making Stalinist/Maoist types feel welcome. Often it just leads to any critique of their idols becoming a controversial topic.

Also thanks for the more in depth explanation on postciv and anticiv. I think a majority of so-called socialists also tend to preserve aspects of capitalism which is why when I refer to communism I mean in terms of the mode of production which I feel helps more inclusively describes a way of living that anprims also describe. Production merely being collectivized I think best describes things like Marxist-leninism or anarcho collectivism which don't actually address systemic factors that lead to the exploitation of individuals and nature. Such solutions merely place the hell of capitalism on the boss and not the existence of the firm itself. Which if I'm not mistaken anprims better describe this relation as simply collectivized industrialism? Again that's just the terminology that I use from my own influences it also doesn't help that my previous influences do partly come from leftcoms who I've come to heavily disagree with.


ziq wrote

postciv is green anarchy for people who feel the need to kowtow to reds. it's like demsoc vs communism or communalism vs anarchy. it's non-offensive, watered down and unprincipled. but at least they won't be called primmies by commies

primitivism is one form of anticiv among many

yes postciv is like solarpunk