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subrosa wrote

Reply to comment by Gwen_Isilith in What happened to Anarchism? by kin

That's pretty much it. The author identifies (the media's attention on) antifa as what happened to anarchism, as the anarchism that came after black bloc and Occupy, so he can identify violent bad folk, and distance himself for proper organizing and Marxism.

Maybe I hang out in the wrong spaces, but it seems rather obvious that there's much more to anarchism. All the good stuff is just a step away from violent antifa in the streets and democratic communism-building with a hint of justified anarchy; it's a choice to focus on surface level shit.

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Gwen_Isilith wrote

I guess I just don't understand your take away. It seemed pretty clear to me the authors problem with Antifa wasn't the violence but how violence became the solution to every problem, even when it did nothing to accomplish ones goals. I think i this is especially true of Antifa's violence, it has mainly become (amd has been) a form of self sabotage.

Aragorn discusses his criticism of Antifa in the context of ARA, which was little more then a street gang similar to antifa today. And the same sort of rhetoric used by antifa ended up pushing A! And his friend to put themselves in situations they would be subject to violence from racist skin heads, and it ended up getting him stabbed and their friend killed.

My take away from this story, especially in the context of my own experiences, is that this us vs them moralism of antifa, which mainly just comes down to right vs left. Is primarily just used to justify violence against people the left disagrees with, which is embodied in the several attacks which have been carried out against Aragorn for example. But even beyond that attacking figure heads who are even slightly on the right not because of any actual threat they pose, but instead putting people's lives on the line to make them a threat.

And all of this for a "victory" that amounts to little more then making certain individuals lose their jobs, or minor injuries.

So I don't agree this is only a surface level analysis. I am bringing other texts I've read on this topic into the convo but I think you are being far to dismissive of this text.

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subrosa wrote

I really don't think a non-left-anarchist position and antifa are compatible at all and I really do not consider left-anarchists, anarchists.

Then maybe we can agree that the text is a valuable and sometimes spot-on critique of antifa, but at best a surface-level analysis of "what happened to anarchism"?

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Gwen_Isilith wrote

I would agree if there wasn't such a large trend to equate antifa with anarchism. I agree part of that is done by the mainstream media but it has also been taken up by many anarchists as well. Even many self-desvribed post left anarchists, particularly those of the Insurrectionary variety, emphasize antifa, especially street fighting and property destruction, as tactics that should be reproduced for their own sake.

I think becoming a Marxist because of this problem is stupid but there definitely needs to be a reevaluation done by anarchists. Aragorns talk at the 2018 bastard conference "Can Anarchism be Saved?" Is a call for just this reexamination.

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subrosa wrote

Maybe I underestimate that trend, it's just not something that came up all that much ever since I first started participating in anarchist spaces in 2016-17. And maybe I am a bit too dismissive without really knowing what's happening 'over there', for lack of direct involvement.

Equating antifa with anarchism is my main disagreement with the essay, it weakens the criticism. That, and the contrasting anarchists' "desperately seeking relevancy" with the skillful organizing of fellow leftists in socialist/Marxist orgs.

I agree that there needs to be a reevaluation done by anarchists. That seems true for almost everything we do and say and believe.

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Gwen_Isilith wrote

That is fair that this seems at least partially limited to the U.S. I would say in that context though things are quite negative in that regard especially if one studies the scene in Portland. But yes the text could have been more explicit in their talking about American Anarchism.

I would like to hope this would spark such a reevaluation for American Anarchists but also these sorts of critiques aren't new do its very likely those this piece set out to critique will just double down.

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