Submitted by a_zed_9 in Anarchism

I see it seems a lot of people have at least semi distanced themselves from Wolfi Landstreicher and his work due to his "controversy" and was wondering if people were aware about this issue of Anarchy: A Journal Of Desire Armed and what they thought of it?

Personally I find it quite strange for people to say they like the work of Wolfi, or other contributors to both this issue and AJODA in general but disagree with this topic. Not because we should have some ideological "faithfulness" to an author but because it seems the arguments laid out in this text are heavily tied to what these authors were writing about (in my eyes that would be complete autonomy, especially for individualists).

For those who are opposed to the ideas laid out in this textand consider yourself influenced by post-left schools of thought I would be interested to hear why/how you reject some of these arguments. And if you are influenced by those who hold these stances, or are associated with them through inclusion in the issue, how you rectify these other ideas with a rejection of those at the center of this issue.

I hope this post doesn't break any rules, I've tried to frame this in a way focusing solely on those who disagree with the subject matter so as to not break any rules, but let me know and I can rake this down, or a mod can if they believe it breaks the rules. But that is not my intention. I have also not included a link to the issue for this reason, if someone can clarify whether or not linking to the issue is allowed ill update with an inclusion of it, but it is easily findable through Google or Archive.org.

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BarbarousPants wrote

I had been wondering for some time where this controversy came from, specifically. Which part of it are you referring to? I'm looking through it right now and am unsure which of the things he wrote are what is being referred to (in part because I've come across what seem to be uncredited (this may just be formatting but I'm unsure) parts that may or may not have been written by him).

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a_zed_9 OP wrote (edited )

For Wolfi the controversy primarily comes from his piece "Child Molestation vs. Child Love". (Again I'm unsure if links would break the ToS so I'll just state that an annotated version is easily findable but the un-annotated version is also available. If messaging it isn't against the rules I could also do that if there's a messaging feature.) He like many other post-leftists (and even others such as Gilles Duave) supported (unsure if his or anyone else stance has changed) child-adult relationships and in this text, and other texts, he encourages people to "freely share erotic pleasure with children". This magazine issue I have brought up is AJODAs issue on "Child Sexuality" and it contains several essays which make a case for why youth liberation stances should include youths autonomy to sexual exploration as well as how this topic then relates to the adults who may be parts of those relationships (often referred to as pedophiles).

Edit: also I believe wolfis essay "to be done with the economy of love" which appears in the following issue of AJODA (double issue 20/21) advocates not only to share love and erotic pleasure with children but also, plants, animals, and non-living things.

While iirc none of the prominent articles are by any of the "big names" of post-left theory. Several "big names" were associated with the publication at the time, and continued to be after such as iirc, Zerzan and Wolfi both contributing to this issue and I believe Bob Black was also a regular contributer at this time but I do not recall if his work appeared in this issue. The reason I bring up the "big names" is because it is my opinion the work of these individuals (tbh less so zerzan) lends itself to support the arguments made in the magazine issue, and so if people influenced by their work largely disagree with this stance, I am curious as to why.

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ziq wrote

raping kids isn't 'complete autonomy'. k thx

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a_zed_9 OP wrote

Could you elaborate on what you find weak or "problematic" about the position? If you would, I'd also be interested to hear your criticisms of the discussion of race among post-left authors.

If I can attempt to summarize: is it fair to say you agree with them in some respects but not on this topic or when it comes to race? Would you say its also fair to say then that you view these stances as not integral to their larger analysis?

I don't think I agree that this is a time based thing. I believe there are comments from Anews in 2007 recounting a member of AJODA defending Hakim Bey (im unsure if he's ever come out as a pedophile or just an advocate to my knowledge he does work with NAMBLA though writing poetry). As well, while I'm least familiar with Bey's work, he is still around and writing to my knowledge and I haven't seen anything suggesting he's change his stance on this topic.

As well if you are unaware "MAP rights" is a growing movement. And while for the most part this is a liberal movement there are self proclaimed pedophiles in the anarchist and post left milue and while I'm unaware of any authors among them it was this sub group that made me aware of this issue of AJODA. So while it is less public, the discussion of this topic is still ongoing.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

I've never really made a connection between anti-identity and white men

Reactionary talking points are impossibl to read or hear without coming across this connection. Surely you must have been aware of it to some degree?

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tabby wrote (edited )

Wolfi suggests that there's ways to "share erotic pleasure" with children that don't harm or violate them. This is bullshit. How many adults who were sexually abused as children do you know speak positively about their experiences and weren't traumatized by them?

Yes, institutions including schools, churches, the nuclear family, etc. repress children, and sexual repression (specifically the repression of age-appropriate sexual behavior, i.e. masturbation) is certainly a part of that repression, but that in no way necessitates or justifies adults sexually abusing children.

Children don't need to be sexually abused by adults to avoid becoming sexually repressed. Most children learn to masturbate by themselves; all they need is to not be shamed for doing so and to be given privacy.

As far as Wolfi's and other individualists/post-leftists/egoists' larger project of rejecting morality: unlike others, I don't think defending child sexual abuse (or rape, murder, assault, etc.) is a bug of individualist/post-leftist/egoist anarchism but a feature and has turned me off of it. I'm all for questioning society's morals and rejecting ones that I know aren't right, but I wouldn't want to live in a community with no guiding morality.

Edit: corrected grammar

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a_zed_9 OP wrote (edited )

Wolfi suggests that there's ways to "share erotic pleasure" with children that don't harm or violate them. This is bullshit. How many adults who were sexually abused as children do you know speak positively about their experiences and weren't traumatized by them?

None of them I know would use the term "Sexual Abuse" to describe their experiences but probably about a dozen including myself.

Edit: this number is just the amount I personally know and does not count texts that recall these sorts of experiences which would increase the number a lot.

Yes, institutions including schools, churches, the nuclear family, etc. repress children, and sexual repression (specifically the repression of age-appropriate sexual behavior, i.e. masturbation) is certainly a part of that repression, but that in no way necessitates or justifies adults sexually abusing children.

How does one dictate what is "age appropriate" without these institutions?

As far as Wolfi's and other individualists/post-leftists/egoists' larger project of rejecting morality: unlike others, I don't think defending child sexual abuse (or rape, murder, assault, etc.) is a bug of individualist/post-leftist/egoist anarchism but a feature and has turned me off of it. I'm all for questioning society's morals and rejecting ones that I know aren't right, but I wouldn't want to live in a community with no guiding morality.

That's definitely understandable. I feel most people would not want to live in a world without morals. Personally I do oppose morals though since it does limit autonomy, and I "value" that more then things like "safety" or "justice" which cam only be attained through morality.

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haulonthebowline wrote

He like many other post-leftists (and even others such as Gilles Duave) supported (unsure if his or anyone else stance has changed) child-adult relationships

Who are the 'many other post-leftists' you are referring to here?

and in this text, and other texts, he encourages people to "freely share erotic pleasure with children"

Which other texts?

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a_zed_9 OP wrote

Prominent ones would be Jason McQuin I believe his name is, who published AJODA 19 on child sexuality. Hakim Bey is a known member of Nambla and to my knowledge LBC also distributes texts about child sexuality so i would lump Aragon in there.

The other text I believe is called "To be done with the Economy of Love" it is in AJODA issue 20-21 (double issue).

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haulonthebowline wrote

Jason McQuin 'supported child-adult relationships'? Gonna need a source on that one.

to my knowledge LBC also distributes texts about child sexuality so i would lump Aragon in there

And to my knowledge you beat your wife.

Seriously, fuck off with this nonsense.

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haulonthebowline wrote

I believe there are comments from Anews in 2007 recounting a member of AJODA defending Hakim Bey

What do you mean by 'defending'? If you mean saying something along the lines of '99% of Bey's writing - the writing that isn't about children - is really great' then you don't need to go to an anonymous comments section from 13 years ago. I'll say it for you right now. Have you read this https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-lamborn-wilson-anarchist-religion? Seriously, do yourself a favor: stop wallowing in libcom drama and read it.

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a_zed_9 OP wrote

Im not saying Bey isn't a good author or that he should be avoided. What I mean is there are still people who defend Hakim Beys position on child sexuality. Thus showing how this is not a time based phenomenon.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

chapo trap house

although you could critique their working class politics as some form of identity politics, this is by far the biggest influence in english language critical to identity politics without reflexively bowing to hegemonic propaganda

also dominated by white men

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haulonthebowline wrote (edited )

Have you read AJODA 19? Have you read the pamphlet? Do you honestly think both of them are just page after page of anarchists saying 'we should all rape kids?'

Honestly, in the time you've spent whining on this thread you could have read both, realised neither are what you think, and moved on with your life.

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haulonthebowline wrote

I could just be using the term a lot more narrowly tho.

Yeah I think the term has narrowed over the years. It used to mean more or less 'anarchists who aren't leftists' and included Zerzan et al. Now it seems to refer specifically to the handful of authors you mentioned.

A! had a long and varied story. He even had a leftist period way back, believe it or not.

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a_zed_9 OP wrote

I will admit I have seen any texts that are written in this same fashion but there is still discourse today that doesn't focus on "danger and consent". Though the texts I am aware of that are more modern are academic and not part of the anarchist milue though some of them as well critique this motion of "consent and danger".

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a_zed_9 OP wrote (edited )

I have read AJODA 19, I havent read the pamphlet but it seems to be primarily a reprint of AJODA 19. And no, no where have I mentioned the rape of children. I'm also not whining, I actually think AJODA 19 is a very interesting text and that more people should read, but there are several other people in the thread who seem to be losing their mind that anarchists/anarchism would be associated with such a topic.

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a_zed_9 OP wrote

This person who was tabling for AJODA. As well there seems to me a growing number of anarchists who are self proclaimed pedophiles, and some of them draw on Hakim's stance of child sexuality (and that of NAMBLA more generally) as a core part of their anarchism. Though I'll admit it seems they are more often influenced by Wolfi and Duave.

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haulonthebowline wrote

This person who was tabling for AJODA

So now you're talking about a person who was sat at a bookfair with a copy of AJODA in front of them? I thought you were talking about a comment on anews from thirteen years ago?

there seems to me a growing number of anarchists who are self proclaimed pedophiles

Only in your mind, comrade. I've been around for a decade and have met most of the people mentioned in this thread in person more than once. I've literally never heard a single person talk about what you're talking about.

some of them draw on Hakim's stance of child sexuality

Again, who?

it seems they are more often influenced by Wolfi

Wolfi's writing on insurrectionism is very popular. His one short essay on child sexuality from the mid 80s is not. In fact, it was long forgotten until Heresy distro reprinted it for god knows what reason.

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haulonthebowline wrote

I actually think AJODA 19 is a very interesting text and that more people should read, but there are several other people in the thread who seem to be losing their mind that anarchists/anarchism would be associated with such a topic.

Perhaps you should be clear about what it is you want from this conversation. To me it seems like you're swinging between trying to smear certain anarchists (or even all anarchists) as pedophiles (i.e. adults who want to have sex with children) and trying to hear what people think about AJODA 19. Maybe you're just concern trolling.

All I'll say on the topic is that the distinction between children and adults is arbitrary, as are the state's various age of consent (as low as twelve in some places, as high as 21 in others). The various customs around sex in stateless cultures are just as arbitrary. My personal position, and one I've lived by no matter where I go in the world, is that it's good practice to only have sex (or any kind of erotic play) with people of a similar age and ability to yourself.

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a_zed_9 OP wrote

So now you're talking about a person who was sat at a bookfair with a copy of AJODA in front of them? I thought you were talking about a comment on anews from thirteen years ago?

The comment from 13 years ago is about someone tabling for AJODA.

I've been around for a decade and have met most of the people mentioned in this thread in person more than once. I've literally never heard a single person talk about what you're talking about.

There is quite a decent sized community of pedophile anarchists on Twitter in my experience, that is who I am talking about here. If you are unaware of them that's okay but I'd prefer if you didn't make comments like "it's all in your in mind".

Again, who?

Again these self described pedophiles who are anarchists I am talking about.

Wolfi's writing on insurrectionism is very popular. His one short essay on child sexuality from the mid 80s is not. In fact, it was long forgotten until Heresy distro reprinted it for god knows what reason.

Wolfi's writing on child sexuality is popular among pedophiles and some "MAP" rights anarchists. And while this popularity may be less than the popularity of his other texts in other milues I think you are completely erasing a milue he has been influential in.

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a_zed_9 OP wrote (edited )

Perhaps you should be clear about what it is you want from this conversation.

My apologies if the topic hasn't been clear but I am hoping to hear what people who have read AJODA 19 make of the arguments inside. I brought up Wolfis essay since it covers the same topic and is a text more people are familiar with. Because wolfis essay is similar, and it got a lot of backlash, and the fact not denouncing this piece may get one banned, I wanted to anticipate negative comments and ask how one separated these ideas from the authors larger work. A question I find extremely interesting since it seems to me that for people like wolfi and other post leftists who seek the complete autonomy if all things, as well as critiquing morality, saying this stance on child sexuality has nothing to do with the larger aim, doss not make immediate sense to me, so I'm curious how people do it.

To me it seems like you're swinging between trying to smear certain anarchists (or even all anarchists) as pedophiles (i.e. adults who want to have sex with children) and trying to hear what people think about AJODA 19.

My intention is not to smear anyone, if you take my words as a smear that is reflexive of your own values. I do not use any of these words in an intentionally derogatory way (even if they can have derogatory meanings). I say that these authors advocate pedophilia because the arguments they put forth are considered pedophilia by most people as most people just take pedophilia to mean anything sexual between a minor and adult. As well these works have been influential to people who take the label pedophile proudly for themself. So I do not use the term to smear, but to accurately describe the arguments and community these texts have been influential towards. Whether you thing that is a mark against these authors is your own opinion. I do not hold any negative opinion on these authors for these texts in question.

All I'll say on the topic is that the distinction between children and adults is arbitrary.

I completely agree. While this magazine issue touches on this a little bit i believe i definitely wish this line of argumentation had been explored more particular how this idea ties into identity abolition/nihlism/anti-identity. Since I think this argument is generalizable to all identity i think it is then easier for those not in this particular identity to understand.

it's good practice to only have sex (or any kind of erotic play) with people of a similar age and ability to yourself.

I do not want to come off as accusatory but simply to ask a question to spark further thought and discussion. But do you think that not having sex or erotic play with people due to them having different abilities could come off as ableist? (I would say this is similar to the argument made that explicitly choosing not to date trans women by straight men reinforces transphobia).

Edit: changed Dating to "sex or erotic play" since I realized the change in phrasing is not truly interchangeable.

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a_zed_9 OP wrote

Again ive said nothing of child rape. But it is not just myself who has made the connection between this topic and anarchism. This text AJODA 19 I think is proof of the association.

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ziq wrote

I just wrote an essay about anarchy and how much fun skinning puppies alive is. I think this is proof of the association.

Btw where's this essay you wrote about child semen you were telling #anarchyplanet I'd be 'anal' about if you posted it here? Let's see it.

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a_zed_9 OP wrote

The link is in matrix, you should be able to find it there, again I'm not trying to get banned. And yes people have written about lots of taboo subjects in relation to anarchy for example black seed six includes a essay on infanticide. That doesn't mean you have to agree with it, as agreeing with something just because it's "anarchy" is ideological, but there's a reason people come to these connections.

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haulonthebowline wrote

AJODA

AJODA isn't an obscure magazine. People tabled it all over the world. It was even for sale at news stands.

There is quite a decent sized community of pedophile anarchists on Twitter in my experience

But is there, really? How many people are you talking about? Ten? Fifteen?

Wolfi's writing on child sexuality...

You mean one short essay here. Stop pretending that there are books and books full of this stuff.

...is popular among pedophiles and some "MAP" rights anarchists. And while this popularity may be less than the popularity of his other texts in other milues I think you are completely erasing a milue he has been influential in.

Even the Heresy Distro person said that the text was lost until they published it a few years back. If he is influential in this shadowy group of Twitter anarchist pedophiles that you keep referring to (that no one else has ever heard of btw) it has only been so very recently.

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ziq wrote

Well if i read it and it demonstrates you're a pedo trying to tie anarchy to raping kids, im gonna ban you whether you linked it here or not.

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haulonthebowline wrote

I say that these authors advocate pedophilia because the arguments they put forth are considered pedophilia by most people

Okay, but you are naming people who never made that kind of argument. They either published a booklet that included similar arguments (as well as opposing arguments) or edited the magazine that the arguments and for some reason you think that puts them on team pro-pedophile.

But do you think that not having sex or erotic play with people due to them having different abilities could come off as ableist?

Possibly. I thought twice about using that word but it accurately describes my thinking. I would never date or whatever someone who, for example, had a profound learning difficulty. I was thinking of a video I saw by a lefttube person about a neo-Nazi who is engaged to a 19-year-old whose learning difficulties mean she is childlike. The video is here: https://invidious.namazso.eu/watch?v=b0OsdkHelf0

As you can see, this is not the same as 'choosing not to date trans women by straight men reinforces transphobia.'

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a_zed_9 OP wrote

But is there, really? How many people are you talking about? Ten? Fifteen?

Personally I only know maybe 50?

You mean one short essay here. Stop pretending that there are books and books full of this stuff.

Well there's also his essay "to be done with the economy of love". As well other texts on the subject in the Milue, such as this AJODA issue, or Girl Love which is promoted inside it, or NAMBLA which is both a communist org and has ties to Hakim Bey, as well as Gilles Duaves piece from the (I believe) left communist milue. So my point is just this is not some isolated thing. Plenty of people on the left and post-left make these same points about child sexuality.

Even the Heresy Distro person said that the text was lost until they published it a few years back. If he is influential in this shadowy group of Twitter anarchist pedophiles that you keep referring to (that no one else has ever heard of btw) it has only been so very recently.

I've only know these people for a little less then a year so I'm unsure how recently theve found tgese texts but it does not change that this viewpoint has existed for at least 30 years.

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a_zed_9 OP wrote

Well that's dumb, didn't realize off site activity was bannable. But if ghats the case i don't understand why you havent done so already since I can already guess your response to some of the comments I've made on the IRC will be.

I'm willing to abide by the ToS here but if your gonna try and police my whole existence then it's not worth it to not be banned.

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ziq wrote

I only look at that irc when someone uses my name so I have no idea what you've said on there outside of saying I'm 'anal' about pedos.

It's not 'dumb' to prevent pedos from appropriating anarchy to promote pedoing. So are you a pedo or not? Because I just tried to read that semen thing and it bored me to tears so I had to stop. Still no idea what it's about.

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