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ziq wrote

learn from the past to apply what did work and what didn't?

None of it worked. They recreated authority with themselves at the reigns, and then they all got slaughtered and fascists ruled Spain for decades.

I'm fully advocating learning from the past. Don't do what they did. Don't remake the authority of the state on a smaller scale and claim it's righteous this time because you're awesome and democratic and your factories only dump waste in the river on Tuesdays.

Also you seem to be going heavy on the CNT-FAI aspect 

They're your entire argument for why representative spokescouncil democracy is anarchist, so what else do you expect me to engage with?

while there where cases of labor and killings of nuns that does not uniformly describe or judge the overall situation that occurred and again over simplifies what occurred

You sound a whole lot like a tankie insisting we view Stalin's massacres through a dialectical lens. It doesn't simplify anything, they decided the Church institution was their ideological enemy (it was), and took their war against reactionaries to defenseless nuns. They murdered them in cold blood.

What's the nuance I'm missing here? Were the nuns actually deserving of being murdered because they dared to resist conforming to their captors' ideological demands? Were the nuns somehow inhibiting the running of their precious factories? How am I simplifying what happened to them? Please explain why the nuns deserved to be murdered or whatever it is I'm over simplifying so I can respond without needing to take wild guesses as to what you're implying.

Also I'm pretty sure I already stressed I'm not saying the CNT-FAI has to be emulated in every aspect

Well you've defended their govermentalism and slavery, and now you've suggested the nun killing had some kind of justifiable nuance to it that I'm missing. So yeah, 3 for 3...

it's less authoritarian to just outright murdering POWs.

They're not prisoners of war if I'm not a government going to war with them as I've carefully articulated. You're applying your governmentalism to me when I've specifically said I'm not a government waging a war, I'm an individual. If someone is trying to kill me, I'm killing them, not taking them prisoner and then enslaving them to build my civilization for me. I don't care if it's not "human" to do so. It's certainly not authoritarian in any way to defend myself.

Also I'm not even going to bother justifying slavery 

Too late, you've done it repeatedly, including in this very comment by calling slavery "human" and thus implying I'm inhuman for opppsing it:

it's a lot more human to just let them keep their lives. [...] I will say if your choice is between executing a fascist POW or letting them keep their lives and further having them aid in efforts against fascism

So there's no confusion - This is you promoting slavery.


Esperaux OP wrote

Again you're reading from a more confrontational viewpoint refusing to actually understand what I'm typing. The killing of nuns is not at all what I was saying lacked nuance. However describing an entire libertarian movement that very much was influenced by organizing outside of the state and orienting towards nonhierarchical forms of organization and collectivization as just a bunch of nun killers with prison camps plays right into both Stalinist and fascist propaganda. They showed in terms of organization and methods that it was entirely possible to exist and organize outside of the state. That these methods can and did work. They collapsed not because of their organizational flaws but due to a combination of isolation, attacks by fascists, and betrayal by Stalinists.

Also I said specifically in that quote of myself that it's more human comparatively to let a fascist keep their lives than execute them as a prisoner of war. Let me be even more explicit in saying that I personally believe focusing on a form of reintegration over imprisonment makes a lot more sense since A. it gives even fascists a choice to participate voluntarily and B. I am of the opinion that prisons ultimately serve to harm the ability of people to learn or reintegrate properly. So please stop trying to assume I agree with every single aspect of this image you have of a "red anarchist".

On the issue of war you as an individual are not likely to survive against an army. However get a group of people together to organize and fight against an army you have a better chance but you also have a war. Even as an individual however it's still extremely authoritarian for you to take the life of someone in your hands and just discard it. Killing is an extremely permanent solution. At that point you're not pushing for a free society if it's one where individuals can just take it upon themselves to execute individuals. That's very much a society based around domination.