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ziq OP wrote

Reddit comments.

Damn, that was interesting.

I guess the only thing that I felt was a little offputting were the various parts of the essay which had some implicit anprim elements, and well... let’s just say that’s cringe.

EDIT: oh actually, reading his other stuff reveals he actually is an anprim. Damn what a shame.

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zoom_zip wrote

“this was interesting”

“oh wait. the person has a label that I disagree with.”

“guess it wasn’t interesting after all.”

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ziq OP wrote

A label I don't even have, mind you.

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ziq OP wrote

yeah I like most of the essay but being an unironic anprim is pretty cringe.

(orrr maybe we should return to monke?? 🤔🤔🤔)

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cretin wrote

Where can I find this on Reddit?

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ziq OP wrote

r/tankiejerk

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cretin wrote

🤣

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cretin wrote

Haha it's a real subreddit, I thought you were joking

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ziq OP wrote

I wonder if the 2 people who downvoted this post object to the anti left-unity part or the "unironic anprim" part.

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ziq OP wrote

r/AnarchismZ comment:

Well, shit. I don't know what actually qualifies as anarchist. It sounds like the crusties I used to hop trains with are the only genuine anarchists I've ever met. If I'm to take this essay seriously, and I really must (I'm selfishly grateful to read a real takedown of online ML authoritarian apologia), then i have to stop identifying as anarchist. I share the anarchist's distrust of rulers and governments and forces, but dammit, I'm still a communalist. I still want to live in a community. I don't identify with Stirner. I won't poison the creek with runoff from my science experiments because I care about the effects downstream. I am fascinated by the Hadza people you wrote about, but I'm not a primitivist. I don't know how I'd fare in the wild, but I'm not trying either. I like sleeping indoors. Please educate me if I'm misunderstanding, but the essay wasn't exactly subtle. If any community at all is authoritarian, then I have to stop calling myself an anarchist, and have to part ways with anarchism. "Mutual Aid" has the word mutual in it, right? Again, if I'm being obtuse, well then I'm obtuse. But believe me when I write that this comment is in the spirit of wishing to learn from others. I am not attacking your ideas.

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Bezotcovschina wrote

I have some good vibes from this one. They are honest, not clingy to ideologies, willing to self-reflect.

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ziq OP wrote

This essay should give you more context about my critique of community:

https://raddle.me/wiki/friendship

You don't have to agree with me about the flaws of community, anarchy is a rainbow with more flavors than I can keep track of. I think the most sustainable mutual aid would arise in a union of egoists though, because everyone is contributing because it serves their interest to contribute, rather than out of some misplaced sense of duty, which will inevitably create disappointment, burn-out and alienation when certain people end up giving a lot more than others and getting nothing back. Labor division, which is a feature of community, always creates power imbalances.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

Looking forward to reading this! Might get a chance tomorrow.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

Terms like "soviet reenactment society" make the piece extra fun to read :)

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ziq OP wrote

You point out some bad colonialist things Marx said & did but you realize that Marx in his later years also become interested in non-capitalist social formations & studied indigenous peoples like the Iroquois right??

Also while the Hadza are a communal people they would not call themselves anarchists, it's not right to appropriate or label them as "anarchistic" (or marxist) for political brownie points. The Hadza are neither anarchists or marxists

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ziq OP wrote

The anarchy I talk about isn't an ideology like Marxism, it's a way of life that's existed for millennia. They live anarchistically and they're very open about it, refusing all authority that the state or anyone else tries to place on them. Holding no gods and no masters. They don't need you to speak for them and they couldn't care less about me or the anthropologist I quoted describing their anarchistic culture in an essay.

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rot wrote (edited )

Anarchism has taken many cues from Marx. It's just a fact.

there is an interesting utube video about native american communal economies and marxism and how marx took many cues from anarchic societies not the other way around like the imaginary tankie says.

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lautreamont wrote (edited )

ziq... I'm at least as disdainful as you are with the whole communitarian bullshit pushed by the Left. The fact it got so mainstream shows this is an empty concept based on a poorly-drawn fiction of social bond. State institutions are using "the community" nowadays to refer to a suburb, or a workplace, which is fucking absurd.

On the other hand, there's the imagined community, and there's the lived community. The latter won't even need to be called as such. Some communities, like milieus, do exist, and they are way preferable to the "band" or the "affinity group", as they aren't as herd-like as the groups or tribes tend to be, and allow for individual experience.

Communities (the lived, organic ones) also got a level of openness to newcomers and casuals, where bands, on the contrary, no matter how interconnected they may be, tend to be shut upon themselves.

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ziq OP wrote

Community has never helped me, just shame, exploitation, abuse and alienation. I can only write what I know.

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lautreamont wrote

Same for me... I don't consider it a community when they don't knock at my door for any friendly purposes. Their "community" is just not that... it's a facade for society.

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lautreamont wrote

To me "community" is either legit or BS depending on who's using it and in what context.

Comparing it to Facebook "friends" is apt, as this is a similar form of recuperation of a concept by an authoritarian element, with the purpose of using this concept as (indeed) "another vessel of authority". But could you say that friends are now a bad concept due to how it's been recuperated by the Zuckerbot?

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ziq OP wrote

2 more reddit comments from a panleft sub that removed the essay.

Yeah this seems like good-faith discussion worth engaging with. And the rest is pretty much in that tone. Thanks, no thanks.

Why is it that every real-life anarchist I meet is a wonderful person that wants to work with me/us but every anarchist on the internet is just this condescending ball of insults? You wanna do it alone, fine, there's the door. Last time I looked, this was "leftist discussions" not "angry screeds while I walk away from you".

And

This is pretty cringe ngl

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CivilizationsEnd wrote

Tankie: “Communities are reactionary”

Red anarchist: sobs “Noooo communities are good and important!”

Individualist: “Communities are reactionary”

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