Submitted by dennisfrancisblewett in Anarchism

Hello, all.

I've considered myself an anarchist since I was about 15-years-old. Along the lines of being an anarchist, I've also considered myself a citizen of the world. However, I never renounced my citizen. I guess that's really bad of me, but it's all fate. Regardless, I think I should renounce my citizenship for a variety of reasons, such as not wanting to be aligned and allied with the United States of America. I wanted to do it in prison, but I couldn't get help to do such.

Supposedly there is a fee. I'm stupid broke and have about $8.00 USD in cash. I'm also living in a shelter. There is also another issue that is seriously bothering me. It's the idea that I would be "voluntarily" and "intentionally" doing so:

"A person who is a national of the United States whether, by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality:

(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State; or..." - https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciaton-USCitizenship-persons-claiming-right-residence.html

What should I make of that free-will propaganda?

I don't believe in free will. I don't believe I would be doing such "voluntarily" nor with "intent."

Perhaps it could be argued that I would be doing such due to socio-economic constraints. I feel it would be dishonest to renounce my citizenship while agreeing that I'm doing it "voluntarily" and with "intent." It's as if the government is saying, "You may renounce your citizenship, but you have to agree that this free will stuff exists before you do."

Ideas? Thoughts on what I ought to do?

Also, does anyone know how much renouncing my citizenship will affect me looking for work, such as getting a job at a restaurant, such as a fast food restaurant (McDonald's, Wendy's, etc.)?

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Ennui wrote

Friend, unless you currently have citizenship in a country you’re living in other than the U.S., I would highly suggest that you do not renounce your U.S. citizenship if you have any plans of living in the U.S. or until you get citizenship somewhere else. Renouncing your U.S. citizenship is only practical if you are moving somewhere else long term and don’t want to pay income taxes.

Your citizenship status does not define you as an anarchist or a person. You can easily maintain citizenship while being faithful to your beliefs—it is the same principle as receiving welfare to avoid working. Think of all of the people currently trying to get U.S. citizenship from poorer countries. Are they doing it because they just love the U.S.A.? No, they’re doing it to survive. Think about all of the people who are not citizens of the U.S. but are living there, who face the constant risk of violence and deportation. Renouncing your citizenship when so many people want what you have is a sign of privileged ignorance.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

OP was posting about how it's impossible to be guilty of rape

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Ennui wrote

They seem to be saying a lot of fucked up things, actually.

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RichOldWhiteMan wrote (edited )

I can think of way better uses of ~20 hours and 2350 dollars than renouncing US citizenship.

Also, it will greatly effect your ability to have a job. If you're not a citizen I'm pretty sure you need a visa to stay in the US. Without a visa most employers won't hire u and ICE might be hunting for you too. Visa cost money and are hard to get as I'm sure u know.

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masque wrote (edited )

There's a reason why the US is one of the only countries that lets you renounce your citizenship without first acquiring citizenship elsewhere. Being stateless will make your life much harder for no good reason.

Want to travel to any other country? Can't do that without a passport. Want to work anywhere other than shady under-the-counter type places that will threaten to report you to ICE if you don't bow to their every whim? Good luck. Think you're safe from ICE because they have nowhere to deport you? Check this out:

Without citizenship, stateless persons may be difficult to deport. As a result, they can find themselves in immigration detention for long periods of time or even indefinitely while they wait for a deportation that will in all likelihood not take place. This situation runs counter to International Law.

Here's a US-specific source, which says that you could be legally detained for up to 6 months (possibly longer illegally) while they try to deport you to a random country that probably doesn't want you. Note that the US is not a signatory to UN conventions on the rights of stateless people specifically because it would conflict with the tradition of renunciation of citizenship.

Being a citizen does not mean that you are "aligned and allied with" the US. There is no good reason to renounce your citizenship.

Also, the legal understanding of "voluntarily" and "with intent" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with your philosophical beliefs about free will. If no one is coercing you into giving up citizenship, it's voluntary. If you're not doing it accidentally, you have intent. But I do like the fact that your ill-advised position on free will is currently cancelling out your ill-advised position on citizenship.

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_caspar_ wrote

"I've also considered myself a citizen of the world."

I would recommend renouncing the idea of citizenship altogether, and not allow such an idea to determine who you are or how you make decisions. Im not sure what you think not being a u.s. citizen would do for you aside from feeling good about yourself that you are doing the right thing? if you do not believe in free will, why are you concerned about this dilemma in the first place? very bizarre, but you do you.

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Kinshavo wrote

Fuck what govt thinks about papers and titles, you said so

I've also considered myself a citizen of the world.

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aaaaargZombies wrote

Why do you care if it will effect your employability, just renounce money!

In all seriousness I fully support the sentiment but this seems like a self destructive endeavor. I'm not going to try and convince you of a better plan, but I don't think you're really bad for being born where you were born. Guilt is not the best emotion to build your life around.

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cdubose wrote

I can't really answer your questions about how to live without US citizenship while remaining in the US (other than it would be stupid difficult, especially if you don't plan to drop out of society--and I mean completely drop out) but if you want some inspiration, I recently discovered that there have been Americans who renounced their citizenship without gaining another, although nearly all of them were already not living in the US or decided to stop living there. Exceptions to this are Garry Davis and Thomas Jolley. Check the green entries on this list for more details if you're curious.

In fact, the US is one of the very few states that allow people to do this; most places won't let you renounce your citizenship without another already lied up, but of course the US hasn't signed any of the UN conventions on reducing stateless peoples, so technically you can become stateless in the US even though the US State Dept highly discourages it. Also, while I don't agree with your stance on free will (at least not the way you've described it here) and I ultimately think renouncing your US citizenship would do far more harm to your personal situation than any good, I do commend your stance of not wanting to align yourself with the US. I certainly relate to that sentiment, but I also want to remind you that none of us asked to be US citizens, we just happen to be. Of course no one chooses where they are born, and the with exception of people who can successfully immigrate to and naturalize in a country of their choosing, no one deliberately chooses their citizenship status or alignment with any country, even outside the US, so don't make too much of your citizenship and let it feel like you aren't being consistent in your principles or whatever.

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