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RichOldWhiteMan OP wrote (edited )

I'm betting that almost all of the tactics will fall in the category of living a ted kazinky life or a pat the bunny life. Tho, I would be pretty excited to see new ones.

Just to throw some new tactics that I've come across from non anarchist sources is urban povertyFIRE, camping for long periods in national parks and living on a boat

And there is always commune living (yuck), squatting (tho I feel like that is very hard to pull off in the US. Tho I wonder if it could be possible in a rural area.)

(it can actually be way cheaper than u would first think. Upkeep is kinda a lot but you can find a boat big enough to live on for < 7.5k and that would allow you to travel and fairly cheaply be able to move to different places. Its especially cheaper if you anchor rather than stay in a marina. Its fairly common for live aboard sailors to sail around and self reliant for basically everything but food and fixing the boat. Then when they run out of money get a shitty job then set sail again after making some money. )

I'm not just looking for big stuff like that. It would be just as exciting to see simpler stuff like being more self reliant on food or banding together with a couple cool folks for greater security.

Honestly, my favorite thing about anarchism is the ideas and planning on how to make the world nicer place with greater autonomy from hierarchy. Sure theory and analyzing what is harmful is vital. I think many kinda loose their spirit when just focusing on that kind of stuff. The dream of building a brighter future in the next decade or by the end of the week is the best part imo. I feel like tactics don't get enough attention. Tho, it makes sense bc its easy to feel like options are limited to win against a many insurmountable obstacles.

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RichOldWhiteMan OP wrote (edited )

Totally pie in the sky impossible idea over here. Anarchists could kinda work with this. Banding together with a lot of people to collectively own a chunk of shoreline. Maybe in a less developed country were the government will give you space as long as you give them bribery money. Kinda like how the kratom industry works in Indonesia or most corporation for that matter.

This small anarchist marina/pirate cove could provide utilities such as internet, water, bathrooms, food through non capitalist means. While allowing people space as they have a boat so they can travel cheaply to a new location for their own desires. Ie, travel somewhere group up a couple people to find a uninhabited location to produce food or other anarchist project with less police supervision.

Having a space where those in need could make their basic needs met and also find cool people to start project with and sail off together. The security and community of a commune without the requirement for you to constantly be around them.

Is there so many barrier to this such as governments dying to shut something like that down and lacking in ability to acquire the vast amount of capital needed for something like this. Tho, being on a ship still allows you to make decent money in a variety of ways such as online sex work, selling drugs, smuggling, writing, freelancing, making products to sell on internet or occupation that let you work remotely such as computer science.EDIT: Being a breadtube grifter is also a decent possibility. (Tho I would never smuggle or sell drugs or recommend someone do something like that. This is all theoretical) I'm all for dreaming but this is so unrealistic and unfeasible that I wouldn't even try to do something like this. And it would probably be a way more terrible experience than I would think it would be.

Yes, I have been watching a lot of one piece. How did you know?

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_caspar_ wrote

(u.s. context) I know folks live (or used to, might be harder these days) on river boats moving up and down the mississippi. not the cleanest of waterways I imagine. I wonder how sea level rise and shifting coastlines will effect infrastructure along all coasts over the next 20-40 years or so. I certainly would not consider the southeast and gulf coast for wilder and more frequent hurricane seasons. living on one of the great lakes could be promising if one can handle being off-water during the long winters.

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ruin wrote

We’re actually considering the southeast for our next move. Super cheap land and cost of living just 30 min from the coast and the weather would make life much easier. Also like to move pretty frequently (5 years is our longest) so not too concerned with long term climate effects.

Have learned a lot living on the farm for the last five years, but it’s too expensive to maintain without a solid day job and the long winters are tough. Just staying warm is a lot of work and basics like fuel/wood and clothing add up to a considerable expense.

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_caspar_ wrote

interesting. I imagine the cost of living being low, but having lived through too many long hot summers, I can't do the heat anymore. the high humidity makes it almost twice as unbearable, and its only getting hotter. in five years it might be doable for some, but I think there will still be a noticeable difference.

Im also craving snow and mountains these days, but understand how costly winters can be. maybe something in the middle ... Appalachia?

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ruin wrote

If you’re near the coast the temp is much more bearable. Northern FL is definitely more comfortable than say Atlanta or Dallas.

Appalachia is great, but everyone wants to move nearer the ocean this time around. We’re also trying to make sure that if the kids decide that they want to go to school they can and that we aren’t in such in a remote area that it limits opportunities for them as they get older. Tough balance sometimes.

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RichOldWhiteMan OP wrote

not the cleanest of waterways I imagine.

You imagine correctly

Honestly having coastal infrastructure is still going to really profitable so most of the companies using the cost will just learn how to deal with it.

The poor people are the coast are going to get totally screwed over. Rural land near the coast prob will get a bit cheaper. Quite a bit of infrastructure will be built in the arctic to get that sweet sweet oil.

Choosing to live in the great lakes seems like a weird choice but some people do it.

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RichOldWhiteMan OP wrote (edited )

One thing that I have been thinking of is how to provide medical care using anarchist principles now. Mostly due to medical care in the US being expensive af. Theoretically someone could attend all the classes an actual MD would by sitting in classes for free and courses uploaded online. (there seems to be a lot).

The big issue is how its a felony to give medical advice without a license. So doctors taught in unorthodox ways or not allowed to practice as doctors. Besides if you actually put in the extreme amount of time studying by studying medical lit, research papers and lectures ud have just as much training as regular doctors except for residency.

Now, if you have a boat, you can go 12 miles of the coast into international waters. You get to choose one country whose laws apply to u. Most cruise ships are "in panama" due to tax reasons. I'm would be very surprised if there isn't one country where its legal to practice medicine without a license. Or at least a country who won't prosecute u for it.

Without having to deal with insurance companies, medical institutions or paying college tuition you could give medical advice quite cheaply. Now, doing surgery on a boat without being trained in a hospital sounds incredibly dangerous. I think it would be a god awful idea. Though being a Somalian doctor giving patients advice on how to prevent and help treat their illnesses 12 miles off the coast of cali sounds pretty great.

Now its time for everyone to shower me with praise and tell me how much of a genius anarchist theorist I am. Bc, we all know I'm just that great.

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lastfutures wrote

Moxie Marlinspike lived on boats for a long time & he said on the podcast he did that you can get them for basically free in the US. Also he just got his food from the ocean.

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ruin wrote

I’m always kicking around the sailboat dream... but my wife’s not cool with being on open water and with four kids and a couple dogs I’m having a tough time selling the idea.

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RichOldWhiteMan OP wrote (edited )

Yeah I heard both of those things. Tho, I would imagine there being a fair amount of upkeep and repair cost to getting a free boat in working order. Fishing is fairly decent due to having quite a bit of vitamins and vitamin rich food being expensive.

As I'm sure you know humans are pretty good at fucking stuff up. Fish caught in the ocean almost allways have dangerous heavy metals and plastic. There are ways to reduce the heavy metal you consume but the plastic not really. Heavy metals aren't really safe in any amount but for non pregnant adults those harms usually dont do anything other than increase you risk of horrible illnesses when ur old.

So everything I said is correct and useful but have some caveats.

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CaptainSoda wrote

What is a car but a boat on land? If someone wanted to run an anarchist communist they could buy some cheap land away from a city, maybe in a warm environment. Then "land pirates" could come to this blank land. It could be a gravel/grass field. Camping spots csetup, maybe you could pay a pre-fab home company to bring in cabins, or a shed building company to build sheds.

You could then insulate the wood sheds, even put dry wall on the inside and paint it, that's a super easy project. You could insulate the door with a door sweep to keep heat in. Then a small room heater and a window ac will give you all the temperature control you need.

A central "legal" home could be built on site by the property owner and everyone could register that as their address for legal purposes so they could have a drivers license, have well water, and electricity.

Funding as you said could come from drug ventures, online crime, or heck even counterfeit which is what I like the best. Then the funds you generate could be grouped together to cover expenses, maybe further out sheds need extra power so you use the group fund to buy generators and gas to make your own electricity that way your not dependent on government infrastructure. To get started you would probably only need $20,000 to buy some raw land outside a city in new mexico or texas.

Elon Musk is rolling out his Starlink system which is great cause you can get a high quality internet connection in the middle of no where. Any extra funds could be put into something like an index fund so while living off the grid in a land pirate community in sheds your community could also benefit off the wealth of the greater nation.

I believe anarchism in the modern world needs to be a balance of independence and working alongside mainstream civilization. You don't need to leave it completely, whose to say you cant take the best parts of the modern world and use it without having to betray anarchism ideals.

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CaptainSoda wrote

I think it would be essential that your community is well armed though. At anytime the government could step in and destroy everything by saying their unsafe residences that do not follow building code.

It would be best to check with a lawyer that the land owner is not liable for this, he could say he is renting out land for people to store their "mobile sheds". That way they don't have legal cause to go after him.

If the community takes off and you have 50+ members, if everyone is well armed with guns, if the police/state officials came to cause trouble all it would likely take if for everyone to grab their gun and walk up to the front gates to the property. Don't even threaten them, but let them know their not welcome on your land. I'm pretty sure any county police force will back off at that point. Should your community grow to 300 members consider yourselves essentially immune to interference from the local government.

An issue would be if you harbor known criminals, that could result in a raid. It is a balancing act, if a drug supplier is hiding out in your community you should let the police take them even if you disagree with it. Pretend your a separate country, make sure you don't the USA reason to go to war with you (sending police in to shut it down).

Yes its unfair, but we live in an unfair world and will have to tow the line between standing up for yourselves and not getting raided. The land owner would have to be someone smart and able to make these tough decisions and not someone who will lead to the communities destruction.

Also if community members are buying drugs/counterfeit and funding themselves through illegal means, it needs to be firmly established that no illegal activity should take place on communal grounds. Drugs/counterfeit should be stored in off-site caches. Like a waterproof box in a forest, dealing and other stuff should be done within the local city or in public areas away from your settlement, shipments should be sent to PO boxes and collected there. This ensures you extra protection and you should have all members know the guidelines.

If your communist becomes a harbor for illegal activity it will quickly be shut down. Only recreational drugs, legit government money, and all that legal(ish) stuff should be brought on communal grounds. I imagine many people will want to do business by themselves, so make sure a guide online exists that they can reference to follow safely.

These are not laws though, just simple guidelines to protect the community and keep everyone safe from the government.

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RichOldWhiteMan OP wrote (edited )

I'm not exactly the type of person who is interested in a commune for many reasons. Thats all I'll say on that.

Tho, I think countries like the USA have proven that it doesn't really matter if you commit crimes or not. Over 100 well armed communists were some are making money by doing crime would go over about as well as ISIS having a recruitment center in the US.

Stuff like Waco were religious conservatives in a rural area are only rumored to be having illegal firearmed caused the US to go full force.

Tho I do think your plan would work in areas like the Puntland. Tho I don't think that is quite what u were thinking.

Also, I would never commit crimes like selling drugs or counter fitting or ever associate with those who are open about selling drugs or counter fitting for many reasons.

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CaptainSoda wrote

Fair point, you see I spend most my time in f/Illegalism. Also how do you expect to fund an anarchist pirate community. You need resources, so you gotta work online, do illegal stuff, or run a normal business. So in the end you just end up forming a town.

Personally I think the goal of an anarchist society as pointless, there will always be leaders, this is an emergent quality of human social circles big or small.

In my example there had to be a land owner who would be essentially a diplomat between his people and the wider government, he would essentially be a dictator because at any time he could utilize the force of the wider government to evict people from his commune. Of course this would cause social pressure in the community and could result in a rift.

But that's how we work, we tend to have leaders and workers. In the pursuit of anarchism you could easily fall into authoritarianism.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Well, what if the central issue then is that "owning" land is not a good way for anarchy? That it was the mistake of Waco, of the utopian American socialists, etc?

The whole point of a mobile fleet, is to be able to move, with the idea that you can't be pinned down and forced to pay for rent or mortgage or utilities or whatever. You just take what you need from the area, make what you can, and you're good to gravy (is that how you say?).

So perhaps some people have means, are in solidarity, and offer land. Great. But, you can still have a mobile fleet without a base, it just has to squat. It can be done, even in the cities. The major problem is; gas, maintenance. The easiest way to avoid this, is to go EV, and either charge solar, have some kind of wind turbine, or easier yet just plug in to electricity plugs where you can take it for free (most caravan have this, and you just need a friend in a house and a 100m extension cable for each vehicle).

Up front costs are huge, which is why I haven't done this, but it's a much better outcome than saving so much money for a fixed location that can be compromised at any time because it's funded by illegal activity and easily traceable.

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CaptainSoda wrote

Yeah I agree, no single solution will fit all needs. The best results will be the mix of various methods. I imagine not everyone wants to live as a gipsey traveling from town to town, but on the other side of the coin, not everyone wants to be pinned to a single location.

There is a website where you can browse for free campsites, it's pretty useful maybe take a look at that. Vehicle expensis would be an issue and an EV would be a great solution if you have they money, but even so gas still works perfectly fine also cars experiance much less ware during high-way driving than city (why many trucks reach 1,000,000 miles dispite carying heavy loads 24/7).

Eirther have a tent, or sleep in your car and crack the window open. It could be done very eaisly. Or if you're making bank through illegal activites on the road you could just sleep in nice hotels every night and not have to worry about funding.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Eirther have a tent, or sleep in your car and crack the window open.

Sure, with a smaller vehicle, these are options

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Tying the boats together, one could float out further to sea and use desalinization/solar to harness water and electricity. food would have to be primarily maritime when at sea, although growing crops on a greenhouse boat would certainly be possible if one were creative enough. an international mooring would be helpful to avoid the physical danger of tsunami, but also legal problems of having a pirate cove in some country's "territory". The location of the fleet could be shared only with those who are connected to it thru affinity, and always changed if needed, resulting in a word-of-mouth type of social networking.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

In general, having mobile fleets (both land and sea) of travelers would be a very feasible way to create anarchist-influenced socialities. I had plans to obtain a boat with anarchist many days ago, but through happenstance it did not occur. I sometimes dream of a maritime queer outpost, of ships of affinity joining and separating on their ways at will, of trainhoppers finding sails to the wind inside them. Perhaps one day, although I grow older each day regardless.

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RichOldWhiteMan OP wrote

although growing crops on a greenhouse boat would certainly be possible if one were creative enough

I doubt it could be big enough to produce a reasonable amount of calories, but could be an effective method to guarantee true high seas living.

legal problems of having a pirate cove in some country's "territory".

I wonder how effective it could be to inhabit a island which is under little state surveillance. There seems to be quite a few places which are unproductive to live. A combination of having a small crew and knowledge of permaculture techniques would probably allow you to find someplace where you could grow food with a decent amount of effor. Especially if you would integrate the food production into the natural ecosystem rather than growing a traditional monculture field to make it easier to hide from surveillance. I have no doubts about the states extensive surveillance and control over the world. The Earth is a big ass place so there has be somewhere their surveillance is limited enough for some to hide from it for a decent time period.

Obviously the biggest issue would be loneliness. Having some interesting people would be a requirement for such a plan to be enjoyable. I also, would feel a little weird about doping out and not engaging in mutual aid to help others. I am quite unknowledgeable but my gut says there is something to sailing that would allow for anarchists to gain great autonomy and ability to support mutual aid efforts in some way.

The idea of boats forming together while maintaining the ability to separate seams like a great individualist method to cooperate for additional strength and companionship while still allowing the individual autonomy. This is probably one of the more exciting anarchist projects I've ever heard of. Tho, all theoretical so in reality is could be absolutely horrible.

I think major issues with such a project woudl be anarchist having little capital boats require significant amount of constant capital input. It can be minimized but the most frugal of sailors still require thousands of dollars to keep up with affording the bare necessaries, ties to areas such as friends or family they need them, and effective means of communication with and finding new anarchist outside of the internet is something that seems hard to do.

I have actually never met a anarchist irl. I have heard of orgs about an hour + away and they have never really responded to my communications. Tho I have seen a total of 2 anarchist stickers in place I have lived. I know that anarchist meeting in person is a thing, but the idea of meeting someone with like minded politics seems absolutely unattainable and outlandish.

Now I too have dreamed of nonbinary boats forming together to make a small queer town so anarchists can party or hang out with far greater autonomy. But for now I'm going to be stuck in civilization while trying to do small projects that feel like holding up a piece of paper to prevent a hurricane from ravaging peoples lives.

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celebratedrecluse wrote (edited )

I doubt it could be big enough to produce a reasonable amount of calories, but could be an effective method to guarantee true high seas living.

You know, i just realized; this project would be well attuned to a smuggler's life.

Make clean drugs (weed...etc) on deserted island, ship on boat, get money donations for other things needed, go back to island, pack up and move to other island, repeat

This way, the capital input problem is solved, with a minimum of political/ethical troubles. There are many places in the world, where it is easy to smuggle things by sea.

Pacific ocean would be a great place to do this. Polynesians sailed waters for millenia without "advanced" steel boats, simply from their own ingenuity and grit.

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RichOldWhiteMan OP wrote (edited )

I heard redditors talking about how some liveaboards getting caught. I know the man who lived at sea for over 1000 days (world record) had previously when to prison for smuggling weed to pay for his lifestyle.

Tho I have no desire to sneak drugs past those protecting the US border. Considering how smuggling was a central value and culture that lead to the US becoming the country it is you would think conservatives would support it. Tho sadly most people in the US are against one of the fee US values I support.

I know not all states are like the US but that's the only one I really know about how they prevent smuggling. Tho I cant imagine smuggling being successful for many years without facing imprisonment at some point. I would want to go to sea for greater autonomy. Having a significant risk of incarceration would be quite counter to such a goal.

And the punishments can be pretty steep in that area. I know Indonesia sometimes using capital punishment for those trafficking drugs. So that would be quite detrimental. Also, I'm proabably far too paranoid or anxious to enjoy such a occupation.

I think such a strategy would be a great method for those who do it intelligently and dont get cocky. The significant risks are the reasons that is one of the few ways to make decent money at sea. Most other methods are far less profitable and rely on greater participation in capitalism. Tho the benefits of getting such significant funding for mutual aid is a quite great.

Fun fact only semirelated. Squatting is actually a somewhat effective strategy. Marlinspike and their crew members found a island which had infrastructure that used to be used for running drugs. The person was incarcerated/ dead so no one would stop them from using the island.

It had boats and other infrastructure than only required some repair for staying long term. There was even a nearby plane crash from the old drug runners failed attempt at flight.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Even if not doing it, still fun to think about. There is so much derelict "logistics and weaponry" from this "war on drugs", like you mention.

I think smuggling into USA from sea would be not too hard, it is their southern border which is the difficult one i think but even there people are constantly crossing unpermitted. The sea, is just so big i can't imagine there aren't huge sections it is easy to beach on.

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RichOldWhiteMan OP wrote (edited )

Yeah, considering how cheap it is to live on a boat the profit u could make from smuggling is kinda incredible.

I could easily see 2 people living in a boat frugally gaining 1 or more decades of living expenses with one smuggling run.

I agree they playing pretend criminal in my head can be a kinda fun activity. I thought about hackers using their easy movement with a boat to skirt law enforcement trying to pinpoint their location.

Someone should make a sitcom where richOldWhite Man runs onto Celebrated recluse on a inhabited island tending their drug plants. If u thought sharing a New York apartment has hilarious wait till u see two queers in a boat.

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celebratedrecluse wrote (edited )

It could be any kind of drugs; some more profitable ones, can subsidize medicinal ones.

For example, I used to sell MDMA to the tourists around here, to pay for my and the girls' cannabis. One could see a future, where estradiol, spiro, and insulin is made on the island, along with psychedelics; the sale of psychedelics for recreational use overseas could subsidize the free distribution of other medicines.

LSD-25 and related compounds would be ideal because of the ease of hiding and storing them long term, and the lack of issues in charging a small fee for using them (would be cheaper than the people's other options, likely, and it is mostly used by consumer for recreational rather than therapeutic purposes). The difficulty of the synthesis would be the primary problem to solve, as well as avoiding humidity damage in transit.

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