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somenudist wrote

wow, really did not expect this to be posted publicly, haha.

glad people appreciated it.

I would add, the title of the blog is "nudism as AN illegalism"!

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lastfutures OP wrote

I saw it on twitter and thought it was a fun essay so I crossposted.

Fixed the title.

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masque wrote (edited )

No strong opinions on nudity, but I definitely have noticed people (not specifically in anarchist settings) misapplying consent to situations that really should not require consent.

I remember reading an r/relationships (or maybe r/AITA ?) thread a long time ago where a woman's partner was angry at her for talking to a particular male friend (or something along those lines), and a disturbingly large number of people were framing it as "he didn't consent to you talking to that person." What the fuck?

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celebratedrecluse wrote

That cop did not consent to being shot!!! Anarchists are no different than fascists!!! You need permission to do anything, you fools!!!

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nbdy wrote (edited )

Very much enjoyed this!

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nbdy wrote

P.s I host this site if anyone would like to write on it let me know :)

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ruin wrote

Good one. We just watched Kirikou with the kids so timely as well.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

I think this was very well put.

On the other hand, I suppose I can make some kind of antithesis here, to keep this interesting topic going.

In a context where sexual violence is so common and normalized, in both marginal and centered social spaces, nudism's sexualization by society can produce in nudist marginal spaces a resexualization of nudism. The ambiguity and fluidity of this is precious, but fraught, and since it is usually implemented in living spaces, in shared collective areas of domestic inhabitance (whether at a demonstration camp, or at a share apartment or a community house, an infoshop where people sleep upstairs, whatever), when nudism is implemented in those spaces of residence it does become an issue of visibility. When people are sequestered from others as in their domestic environments, abuse is most likely to occur; introducing something fraught like that into a living environment, is totally different from a public non residential space, like a commonly held nude beach. I would also assert that it is a resident's right to decide whether they are going to live in a nudist space or not, and it's fine for people to decide either way. In fact, forcing a nudist to be in non-nudist spaces, and vice versa, is far from ideal and some kind of deprivation of rights and safety respectively. An anarchist collectivity would try to share resources to redistribute housing space in a way that is most amenable to the most individuals.

Additionally, when nude people engage in sexual activity-- including sexual comments, as well as sexual actions-- this immediately brings lead to the issue. For while nudity is not inherently sexualized, many people will sexualize it. There is also the issue of nude people being sexualized, which is a serious concern I have as a feminist issue, and yet not often talked about when the subject of nudity in anarchist spaces is discussed. This is because, as I think the author of this essay may concur, there is a generally punitive and criminalizing attitude towards behavior in our authoritarian society, and that seeps into the discourse of anarchists about anarchists, due to the way that social conditioning, propaganda, and programming work together to produce compliant neoliberal subjectivities.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Another issue that comes to mind that I forgot: children. There is an issue at a share house I am aware of in my area currently, run by anarchist, that has children in a partially nudist household. While I am not directly living in the space, it is something that I am a bit concerned about because of the limited agency of children to self determination and the normalization, the imposition of parental values on children.

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somenudist wrote

Hey! I really appreciated both of these posts.

First off, the kids thing. I think, at some point, I'll write a separate thing on the topic, but I am sort of interested in how "protecting kids" is the principal discursive weapon for all sorts of political agendas, and it's often a horseshit thing to bring up. In the nudism case, I think there is an argument to be made - which has been made, very often, by mainstream naturist associations and by a lot of people who grew up in naturist households - that a family environment in which nudity is normal is better for psychological development, empowering kids to simply have some information, preventing confusion about certain bodily developments that may come up later, etc. In general, this topic already feels covered by mainstream naturism, and I don't think I have much new to say; I would see my role as just making anarchists more aware of these arguments (and the proofs for these arguments).

The fact that kids have limited agency, that adults tend to impose their values on kids, seems like a universal issue, too - and worth discussing. I think I'd want to question, like, talking about the imposition of "nudist" values as an especially problematic manifestation of this, especially insofar as it is kind of uncommon, probably better (if you believe naturists) than environments where nudity is forbidden, and (this is my experience, both from when I was a kid and occasionally interacting with kids now) it's often the kids themselves who want to get/stay naked, and this is in conflict with the expectations of adults (like my grandmother who refused to speak to me unless I put clothes on, when I was circa 2 years old).

Regarding the other post, NOT about kids... I want voluntary association, for everyone, universally I suppose. People should live where they want to live, with whom they want to live.

But practically speaking, to the extent we exist in a scarce housing market and moving is arduous and expensive, we sometimes find ourselves living with people that we have some disagreements with, or even just mismatched preferences regarding cleanliness, whether to have animal products in the kitchen, etc. So we have to negotiate space with each other, pick our battles, let things slide. It's in this context that, like, I want to put forward the idea that simple nudity is maybe something that people ought to let slide a little more, regardless of people's personal feelings or preferences on that specific issue, because it OUGHT to be less obnoxious than some other things.

full disclosure: I sometimes think I'm a bad roommate, and I also think that I'd probably be a better roommate if I didn't HAVE to wear clothes when doing the chores that, like, obviously need to get done

anyway, I can anticipate many ways that someone else could use this sort of argumentation to go somewhere that I think is fucked up, which is why I have said "simple nudity"... There's no question that nudity + sexual commentary and/or sexual behaviour and/or other things is a different matter.

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Daileon wrote

You made all the good points I thought reading the text, I think the building of the anarchist culture and relationships based on freedom is an everyday challenge.

I like to see the nudism in an anarchist frame and not associated with the "moral superiority" of anarchism

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Thanks

I think the moral superiority of anarchism is toxic and probably should be abandoned as bourgeois and unhelpful. I don't know how to do that. But it'd be dishonest not to acknowledge this type of thinking in these spaces. I like the way you phrased that.

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ruin wrote

I like to see the nudism in an anarchist frame and not associated with the "moral superiority" of anarchism

Great point. As in this conversation, I see the moral superiority of anarchists often coming from those with absolutist views based on a utopian analysis.

The notion of consent/consensus social framework seems only useful in very narrow context and to me is utopian in nature.

In contrast the idea of affinity is far more open and suggests a heterotopia in a practical sense.

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8823a413f wrote

I like the point that nudity is sexualized and it shouldn't be, but I'm not really sure we can get rid of sexualization. People are socialized to sexualization of body, and that is very strong emotional and physical habit that is difficult to root out. Can you really avoid sexual impulses when being around naked around other naked attractive people? And if you can't how do you deal with that? I know some pre-modern cultures in Africa somehow dealt with that so this is certainly possible, but not sure how you can do it in modern societies.

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mofongo wrote

Once you get used to seeing people naked on casual settings, nudity only becomes sexual in the right context. Like when you're flirting with someone or about to start sexy time.

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