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celebratedrecluse wrote

Reply to comment by celebratedrecluse in by !deleted23972

Another issue that comes to mind that I forgot: children. There is an issue at a share house I am aware of in my area currently, run by anarchist, that has children in a partially nudist household. While I am not directly living in the space, it is something that I am a bit concerned about because of the limited agency of children to self determination and the normalization, the imposition of parental values on children.

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somenudist wrote

Hey! I really appreciated both of these posts.

First off, the kids thing. I think, at some point, I'll write a separate thing on the topic, but I am sort of interested in how "protecting kids" is the principal discursive weapon for all sorts of political agendas, and it's often a horseshit thing to bring up. In the nudism case, I think there is an argument to be made - which has been made, very often, by mainstream naturist associations and by a lot of people who grew up in naturist households - that a family environment in which nudity is normal is better for psychological development, empowering kids to simply have some information, preventing confusion about certain bodily developments that may come up later, etc. In general, this topic already feels covered by mainstream naturism, and I don't think I have much new to say; I would see my role as just making anarchists more aware of these arguments (and the proofs for these arguments).

The fact that kids have limited agency, that adults tend to impose their values on kids, seems like a universal issue, too - and worth discussing. I think I'd want to question, like, talking about the imposition of "nudist" values as an especially problematic manifestation of this, especially insofar as it is kind of uncommon, probably better (if you believe naturists) than environments where nudity is forbidden, and (this is my experience, both from when I was a kid and occasionally interacting with kids now) it's often the kids themselves who want to get/stay naked, and this is in conflict with the expectations of adults (like my grandmother who refused to speak to me unless I put clothes on, when I was circa 2 years old).

Regarding the other post, NOT about kids... I want voluntary association, for everyone, universally I suppose. People should live where they want to live, with whom they want to live.

But practically speaking, to the extent we exist in a scarce housing market and moving is arduous and expensive, we sometimes find ourselves living with people that we have some disagreements with, or even just mismatched preferences regarding cleanliness, whether to have animal products in the kitchen, etc. So we have to negotiate space with each other, pick our battles, let things slide. It's in this context that, like, I want to put forward the idea that simple nudity is maybe something that people ought to let slide a little more, regardless of people's personal feelings or preferences on that specific issue, because it OUGHT to be less obnoxious than some other things.

full disclosure: I sometimes think I'm a bad roommate, and I also think that I'd probably be a better roommate if I didn't HAVE to wear clothes when doing the chores that, like, obviously need to get done

anyway, I can anticipate many ways that someone else could use this sort of argumentation to go somewhere that I think is fucked up, which is why I have said "simple nudity"... There's no question that nudity + sexual commentary and/or sexual behaviour and/or other things is a different matter.

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kin wrote

You made all the good points I thought reading the text, I think the building of the anarchist culture and relationships based on freedom is an everyday challenge.

I like to see the nudism in an anarchist frame and not associated with the "moral superiority" of anarchism

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Thanks

I think the moral superiority of anarchism is toxic and probably should be abandoned as bourgeois and unhelpful. I don't know how to do that. But it'd be dishonest not to acknowledge this type of thinking in these spaces. I like the way you phrased that.

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ruin wrote

I like to see the nudism in an anarchist frame and not associated with the "moral superiority" of anarchism

Great point. As in this conversation, I see the moral superiority of anarchists often coming from those with absolutist views based on a utopian analysis.

The notion of consent/consensus social framework seems only useful in very narrow context and to me is utopian in nature.

In contrast the idea of affinity is far more open and suggests a heterotopia in a practical sense.

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