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ShadesPath wrote

"If we vote for the nicer racist authoritarian then the fascists would go away!"

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celebratedrecluse wrote

It doesn't, and there's a decent argument to made that this would further embolden and infuriate the fascist base in USA. I mean, it seems almost like donald trump wants to lose the vote, so he can stoke this rage and use the spineless democratic party as a ratchet to gain more power.

However, this is also a strawman, as a lot of the people voting for biden reluctantly aren't making this argument. A lot are, but a lot aren't. A lot that aren't, that I have corresponded with, believe that the possibility of trump winning will cause it's own, worse acceleration, while biden will simply keep things the trajectory where it is for the time being. I think it's wrong analysis, an incorrect ontological map, but it's a mischaracterization to suggest all of these people are this delusional.

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ziq wrote

none of them have any power over who wins so they're just expending energy thinking about inconsequential bullshit

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celebratedrecluse wrote

hey, i mean that's why i think about another country's election too, i guess lol

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ziq wrote

it's even more inconsequential over there what their electoral college system

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tucc wrote

I feel like elections are a lot like watching sports, cheering for the team you want to win

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catachresis wrote

I like this take.

It’ll accelerate no matter who wins. I’m not in a position to speculate which is worse but I think if trump loses the fash are going to start shit and I don’t think Biden is going to do anything about it.

Something I haven’t seen talked about is how if Trump does win he doesn’t have to worry about reelection in 4 years so he will feel more confident to fuck shit.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

it seems like USA is already heading toward a head-on collision with itself, and there's nothing that can really prevent that entirely now so i guess the best you all could hope for is damage control.

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catachresis wrote

damage control

It feels like every side wants this and that’s why it’s gotten like this. I’m glad I live in a decent part of the country I guess, but the more I think about it the less it feels like decent exists.

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ShadesPath wrote

The OP of the thread was implying that if we vote Trump out of office, then that would somehow cause fascism to go down, that's who I'm referring to.

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Trunk wrote

If you don't vote for the nicer racist authoritarian – then will the fascists go away?

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ShadesPath wrote

No, because fascists don't go away no matter who is in office.

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Trunk wrote

So "it won't make the fascists go away" is true of both voting and abstaining, and has no persuasive influence on which you should do.

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ziq wrote (edited )

Good comment:

https://old.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/it0w8a/voting_for_harm_reduction_purposes_does_not_make/g5caqqq/

If a person votes or not, is entirely up to that person and is, imo, not up for judgement. I don't feel comfortable telling anyone else what to do. I may find it laughable, or commendable, but it isn't me... so, not my place.Viewing the current state of affairs as 'uniquely horrendous' misses the mark by a long way. Trying to identify potential "beneficiaries" in the ranks of the poor and oppressed, of either party's policies, is an exercise in futility. Things were not better under Obama, they weren't better under Bush, and they weren't better under Clinton ... ad nauseum.

Pitting oppressed groups against each other in a lottery of "benefits" does not serve the cause of freeing humanity from its chains. Trans rights are not subordinate to PoC rights, nor are they superior. Trans people have not been better served by any administration that has existed to date, and the same is true for PoC or any other oppressed class. There are, of course, many more oppressed groups, and I only include Trans and PoC here for the clarity of the point - one could insert any group of oppressed people. The point is Oppression Olympics only serves the oppressor.

Attempting to quantify the lives in danger under president x or president y is a fine effort, but we know it's also a failed effort, because we know that as long as any person has the power of a ruler, all life is at their whim - Obama murdered Abdulrahman al-Awlaki when Abdul was 16. Trump murdered Abdul's little sister, Nawar when she was 8. I can not rank them by their injustice or any other factor. Obama/Biden is Evil. Trump/Pence is Evil. Full Stop.

The thought that one Murderer may be "better" or, "less evil" is, imo, perhaps more evil, more wrong. I say this because I can not tell Eric Garner's family that his suffering was more acceptable under a less overtly offensive ruler. This is, imo, worse than most anything else - it is tacit acceptance of their suffering, and more than that, making it ok. I will put this in all caps: NO ONE MURDERER IS EVER BETTER THAN ANOTHER. There is no Solidarity in helping Murders come to power - in fact, quite the opposite.Harm reduction as applied to electoralism is only ever a component reduction, but never an across-the-board reduction; that is, it does not actually sum to less harm, only different harm. This can be seen in every "lesser of two evils" vote that has ever been cast. This is not, however, to be conflated with harm-reduction policies that actually reduce harm in targeted ways. Voting Biden is wildly un-targeted if harm-reduction is the motivation.

Sadly, America must suffer more and longer before it will be able to begin thinking about casting off its chains of 100 years of propaganda and grooming, and confront itself. The suffering will happen under Trump OR Biden - but Trump has been an amazing piece of agitprop for the left, and I, for one, prefer the clear understanding of the situation in Portland, to the murky liberal-tainted sadness that was DAPL & Gitmo & NAFTA & ... everything that has led us to this point in time. The wars have come home and I, for one, welcome their arrival.

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ziq wrote

Voting makes you a lib.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Donald Trump is a liberal fascist (unironically this)

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ziq wrote

Hitler's party was elected by the democratic parliamentary system in place so I don't even see the difference.

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StrongerThanEvil wrote

I understand you guys are probably talking about USA, but where I live political parties receive 11.60€ for each vote they get on elections. Either way, monetarily or morally, no fucking way I'll help feeding corruption.

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TheOmegaDirective wrote

Of course it doesn't, every anarchist has a responsibility to protect marginalized people from Trump.

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emma wrote

I like it when Daddy Biden is the one doing the harm to marginalised people instead.

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TheOmegaDirective wrote

I'm not saying Biden is perfect but once Trump is out, we can deal with Biden. The left has far more influence over a democrat than a fascist.

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ziq wrote

You have zero influence over any ruler, rulers don't obey peasants.

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emma wrote

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ziq wrote

I'd love to smack an anarcho-bidenist over the head with that.

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ziq wrote

that's when violence is justified

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TheOmegaDirective wrote

Actually he's already shown that he's willing to listen to progressives, even Bernie. He's running on the most leftist platform in American history.

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catachresis wrote

Biden is not running the most leftist platform in history. Gravel was running a much more progressive platform for example.

The American people I think are slowly becoming more left and might be the most left in history, but I’m not sure.

Biden is running on the standard status quo ticket. That’s called conservatism. .

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lastfutures wrote

I've seen that claim a few times, what the hell are you talking about? He got M4A, weed legalization, and climate change initiatives off the platform. His response to BLM is increasing police budgets and indicting anarchists & rioters.

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tucc wrote

What concessions has he made to progressives? What part of his platform and his close ties to corporate lobbyists is leftist?

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celebratedrecluse wrote (edited )

Eugene Debs ran as an explicit socialist, while still incarcerated, and won more votes as a percentage of the electorate than third parties USA do these days. Millions, if you count all 5 times he ran.

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ziq wrote

replace 'anarchist' with 'hypocrite' and you might be onto something

whose gonna protect the world from that rapist racist colonizer biden?

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TheOmegaDirective wrote

Are you really going to act like Biden is exactly the same as Trump? There is such a thing as a less bad president and as anarchists we should be ensuring our president does the least harm possible, especially to trans and POC comrades, who are the ones Trump is most harmful towards. Don't you care what happens to them?

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ziq wrote

Oh shit, I didn't realize daddy Biden was the savior of oppressed people, wtf was I thinking? Biden will totally save oppressed people. He loves standing up for oppressed people!!

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TheOmegaDirective wrote

That video is really old... Don't you think people are capable of changing? What about his current pro LGBT position? https://joebiden.com/lgbtq/ Do you see Trump running on a pro LGBT platform? Biden is listening to the left because he knows he has to earn our votes.

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ziq wrote

no I don't think a geriatric rapist with a lifelong history of segregationist politics and taking pride in putting scores of black ppl in prison for non violent offences and denying queer ppl equality has changed just because some bootlicker on the internet says he's changed when it's election season

he's been directly responsible for destroying countless lives all over the world and upholding white supremacy at every opportunity for the past 40 fucking years and anyone who thinks he should be rewarded for that is a fucking tool

fuck biden and fuck you

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willow wrote

if you really believe that voting is harm reduction, you should realise that voting for whoever the DNC nominates because "it's not Trump" is precisely the reason why they will never nominate a candidate who's the least bit progressive or left-wing. because they know "the left" will always vote for them, their only concern is being conservative enough to steal a few voters from the GOP. voting for this terrible candidate only ensures that the next candidate will be even worse.

and fuck you for trying to use people like me as a guilt trip for your shitty politics.

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emma wrote

This is pure supposition lol.

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ziq admin wrote

stop pinkwashing war criminals

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celebratedrecluse wrote (edited )

LGBTQ: It just lists what was done during the Obama administration, repealing Don't ask don't tell for the military and endorsing marriage equality (in 2012, after 4 years in office!). There aren't even promises for anything beyond just rolling back Trump's rollbacks, and a vague reference to the possibility of federally prosecuting hate crimes against transgender people. It's a start, but there's literally nothing else on the web page.

Black community: His promises are to provide a small financial assistance to homebuyers (UGHHHHHHHHHH), fund a substantial amount of money into HBCUs (alright), provide loan forgiveness for public servants (already exists, additional money requires Congressional approval), and promote small businesses (UGHHH)

draw housing and community development capital to low-income communities

literally gentrification

protect tenants from eviction

a state level issue, he has no real power to enforce this.

He will build new and repair existing affordable housing...Joe will expand funding for shelters and other homelessness programs.

Requires bicameral support in congress to do anything. What comes of this will be insignificant compared to the promise.

He will give Americans a new choice to purchase a public health insurance option

Will he? Again, require bicameral support from Congress, something which is quite unlikely to occur. When he was in office last time, the ACA couldn't even include a public option despite supermajorities in both houses. He has no intention of doing this, nor does he have the capacity to.

He will stand up to abuse of power by prescription drug corporation

Really? That's surprising, they paid him pretty well so far. $3,763,308 according to opensecrets.org

And, he will reduce our nation’s unacceptably high maternal mortality rate, which disproportionately affects black women.

Fucking how will he do this?

He will double America’s investment in community health centers and ensure enforcement of mental health parity laws and expand funding for mental health services. And, he will make an unprecedented investment in research to find cures for diseases like cancer, Alzheimer’s, and diabetes.

How? You need Congress to do this. Unless, we're talking about cutting the military budget, moving over discretionary spending to the civilian sector? Oh wait, he promised to expand it even further past Trump's 800 Billion USD budget.

Invest in our Students and Educators.

He wants to double down on No Child Left Behind era mass standardized testing: that's what "rigorous standards for coursework" means. The rest of his promises would require congressional approval, again something he is incredibly unlikely to have. Alternatively, he would have to redirect billions from the military budget's discretionary component, which is something he says he will not do.

Joe will invest $1.7 trillion over the next ten years in a clean energy revolution, creating 10 million good-paying jobs.

Where the fuck is this money coming from?

He will stand up to the abuse of power by polluters who disproportionately harm Black communities and hold those polluters accountable.

You mean, the polluters who paid him? $1,631,186 from Energy & Natural Resource companies, $1,392,684 from agribusiness, $76,108,828 from Finance (which diversifies their portfolios by investing in these companies). This is a huge swath of Joe's campaign income. Bain Capital, co-founded by Mitt Romney, gave millions to Joe this year.

As president, Joe will reinstate federal [environmental] protections, rolled back by the Trump Administration

So, status quo? No new ideas, eh? I remember, back in 2015 USA had literally no environmental problems, you're right

Make a Transformational Investment in our Country’s Infrastructure. Joe will invest $1 trillion over ten years

WHERE IS THE MONEY COMING FROM?

To tackle poverty, he will support applying Congressman James Clyburn’s 10-20-30 formula to all federal programs, which would allocate 10% of funding to counties “where 20% or more of the population has been living below the poverty line for the last 30 years.”

Not a bad idea, to apportion the funding differently. But if it's just rearranging what's currently on the table, obviously this will be insufficient.

Strengthen the Right to Vote.

OK, I fully believe he will do this, it's in his best interest as the head of the Democratic party to counter Republican party efforts to suppress the vote.

Joe will create a $20 billion competitive grant program to spur states to focus on prevention and reduce incarcerated populations

Peanuts.

He will expand and use the power of the Justice Department, under authority created by legislation he authored, to address systemic misconduct in police departments and prosecutors’ offices.

Simply a rollback of Trump era rollbacks, and almost definitely not enough to stop this pattern. Moreover, the police's purpose is the problem: we need to find alternatives to policing, not "make the cops good".

Joe will also invest in public defenders’ offices, eliminate the death penalty and mandatory minimums, and end the federal crack and powder cocaine disparity. He will decriminalize the use of cannabis and automatically expunge all cannabis use convictions, end incarceration for drug use alone, and expand effective alternatives to detention. He will end cash bail and private prisons.

Almost all of this happens on the state and local level, not at the federal government level. what the hell is the plan for ensuring this actually happens?

Joe will invest $1 billion per year in juvenile justice reform.

a tenth of one percent of the federal budget. Vague description.

He will also set a goal of ensuring 100% of formerly incarcerated individuals have housing upon reentry and expand access to mental health and substance use disorder treatment, as well as educational opportunities and job training during and after incarceration.

Wonderful, how is it to be funded without a cooperative congress though? Expand access-- why not guarantee? Employment during incarceration? That's literally slavery, paying people less than a dollar an hour to fight your wildfires and make your license plates.

changing the culture that enables sexual violence

The guy has sexual assault allegations. Electing him directly emboldens the culture that enables sexual violence in USA. Beyond that, the rest of this paragraph is just vague AF.

Disability coalition:

Guarantee access to high-quality, affordable health care, including mental health care; and make sure that medical debt can never bankrupt any family.

The public option he promotes, is for starters not politically viable in Congress and moreover is not going to work: the public option is designed to fail, because allowing rich people to funnel their money into low risk pools will leave all the most vulnerable people with the highest medical bills into a single program which will then fail over the course of a year or two.

Eliminate employment barriers, phasing out the subminimum wage for disabled workers.Get students with disabilities the education they need to succeed – investing in early interventions and accessible child care, to support kids from birth; fully funding the IDEA; and supporting disabled students’ transition from high school to college and employment. Boost economic security for people with disabilities – strengthening Supplemental Security Income (SSI) for people with no work history, and Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) for any worker who becomes disabled.

These are overall good, but I'll believe it when I see them to be honest.

Additionally, even if there were actual detailed plans, these are just promises. You have to look at his record, which has been to accelerate policies that directly harm most egregiously black people, but also harm other marginalized groups, and then bragging about them for decades. He has credible sexual assault accusations. This is not a progressive candidate. In fact, he was elevated from 4th place to the frontrunner by a concerted effort of the centrist political class, specifically to deny Bernard the nomination. He's running to the left? No, his whole purpose in this election was to destroy the progressive electoralist surge and keep it under control.

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tucc wrote (edited )

This is something I struggle with. I agree that Biden and Trump are not the same, but I'm not certain that things will be very different with Biden in office. What if he's just quieter with his bigotry?

Sure Trump validates fascists, but if he loses, I don't think his fans will go away. Maybe they'd even push back harder.

And in terms of policy, a lot of his promises are toothless, "defend constitutional rights," talk. His Muslim platform doesn't mention law enforcement agencies' surveillance programs. He wants to expand community policing. And will he even keep his promises? His donor list seems to contradict his platform.

But Biden at least says he will try to protect marginalized people while Trump has been loudly racist and discriminatory. It seems like one is clearly better than the other.

(Edit: Also I really can't speak for foreign policy (which should maybe be a large part of the conversation) since I'm pretty ignorant about international politics)

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