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ConquestOfToast wrote

What if I'm cool with anticiv thought but despise primitivism?

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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ConquestOfToast wrote

Because primitivism is essentially eco fascism. Or at the least it's structured that way. Like I hated primitivism before meeting any, but since then I've seen them dismantle communities by breeding apathy because it'll all be fucked anyway.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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ConquestOfToast wrote

Ugh I didn't recognize your screen name. I'm not against green ideology. I'm against primitivism. And the whole subservience to nature as a way to elevate us back to our full humanness and liberation reeks of esoteric fascism a la, if everyone just knew their place humanity as a whole would be better off. No green scare here.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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ConquestOfToast wrote

First of all. I don't believe in the nature non-nature dichotomy that you fucks hold to an almost religious standard. Humans are of nature and as such any action we take is natural. In the same way that when the earth was a molten mass of rock and iron, it was still nature. I care about this planet, and preserving the life on it, it's exactly why I am a transhumanist, and not some apathetic fuck waiting for apocalypse. I think you have me pegged for some shit head who wants sprawling industrial plants spewing black smog into the air and I am absolutely not for that. You can't be against hierarchy, and simultaneously demand subservience to some divine order, you can't be for independence and actively oppose the tools that give us independence. The conception of green ideologies is one of action, of what we "ought" to do, and our role in that changes drastically when the different contexts change. Primmie conception of "green" is to just let massive die offs happen. You want sustainability? How about actively engaging in and using the tools we have to prevent ecological disaster, instead of sitting back smugly waiting for moment where you get to say "see told you so" to, like, no one, because we'll be dead.

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Defasher wrote (edited )

Don't pretend like you're doing something to save the world. Industry is killing everything, all you do is promote more industry. You're doing the direct opposite of helping.

I'm actually a green anarchist - I reject things that hurt the world. My footprint is miniscule. I've dropped out of society and this phone is my last tether to that world. You don't, you just play lip service to a vague idea of sustainability like "noooo we'll totally make our augments more sustainable than all the piles of tech we buy now after the revolution".

I'm not a primitivist like F7, just anticiv, but you can't be pro-industrialism while calling yourself a green anarchist.

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ConquestOfToast wrote

Cool I'll admit to that when you can admit that creating technology isn't the same as industry. Christ you people are so full of assumptions and intellectual dishonesty it's disgusting. And I don't pay lip service, sure I may be more tethered than you, but I do things as well to limit my effect on the environment. I also know that while personal responsibility is absolutely necessary, it's a bandaid. Radical restructuring of our human society needs to happen before actual sustainability can be achieved. Restructuring that absolutely requires technology, as we're already in a spiral we can't pull out from by just making better individual decisions. As far as augmentation or whatever stick for brain flippant you want to throw at me, I don't propose we seek to develop whatever sci fi flight of fancy you think I dream about until after dismantling capitalism, patriarchy, and the destructive systems that caused our ecological feed back loop. But to know that, you'd have to stop being a pretentious asshole.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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ConquestOfToast wrote

Humans are a part of nature, yes, and so are animals and plants. Why do we get the "natural" (as you call literally anything, apparently) right to authority over these beings?

I don't want nor do I advocate for authority over animals and plants. In fact I'd argue that it's our responsibility to preserve them, and seeing as we are in the unique position of not only understanding intimately what is happening to our environment and the long lasting effects many of our practices have, it's our duty to own up to and fix our mistakes.

I'm curious why you think I am apathetic? I'm not waiting for it, I'm preparing for it and trying not to make it worse than it already will be.

This is the equivalent of hitting someone with your car, and then refusing to call for help because your convinced the gurgling body in front of you is dead anyway, so why try. It's apathy, because to me, giving a shit means actively engaging in solving the problems we've created, hunkering down to wait it out is the laziest position to take.

What tools are you referring to, and how do they grant us independence? Is independence possible without the skills to live without any other human or technology helping you? I don't think it is. If the farmers stop growing food, or the scientists stop manufacturing protein, and I can no longer live because they stopped, am I independent? Of course not.

You do know humans are social creatures right? If there is such a thing as human nature, it necessitates communal involvement. None of us is truly or completely independent, or liberation is necessitated by our community also engaging in liberation.

It's actually to not ever let massive-die offs happen.

I'm curious why you think I am apathetic? I'm not waiting for it, I'm preparing for it and trying not to make it worse than it already will be.

The tools we currently have do not work. I don't gamble with the future of life, and as such I will not rely on the scientists (whom I would be dependent on), to invent brand new technology which will save the planet, because none of their technology has proven helpful, and it is not proving helpful currently.

Oh please, don't act so pious. Even I admit it's a gamble to engage in saving this planet. There's no doubt about that. But in your case, the gamble is everything will survive, or some will, mostly. I'm not guaranteeing some miracle technology, I'm saying we need to look harder at solutions to undo what we've done. You might be right that none of this is salvageable, shit I'm scared you're right, but sitting back and do nothing has never helped, and if shit is doomed anyway, we might as well try. IF any humans survive the impending ecological disaster, there sure as shit not going to look at people like you as a model of how to act.