lori wrote on December 28, 2019 at 1:13 AM

I personally do believe voting is a good idea out of harm-reduction The cited example of Greece, for instance; the new right wing government is already cutting programs and increasing repression even further. It's not that the left wing reduces harm, its that the right wing is more harmful.

But good god I can't stand these people on Reddit who shout down everyone who doesn't want to play in the state's little game because they're such a fan of these rulers.

kore wrote on December 28, 2019 at 1:53 AM

I'm glad you said this. I also think it depends a lot on situation. Like when Obama was elected, things probably would have been pretty similar if it was McCain instead. But with Trump it doesn't really seem like that. There's also the case of local politics which I think is a completely different story, where elected people can put in some beneficial programs. As a random example take the idea of sanctuary cities in the USA. Those exist because people voted Democrat in their localities.

Bezotcovschina wrote on December 28, 2019 at 10:45 AM (edited on December 28, 2019 at 11:32 AM)

I don't think that voting can bring a sensible change in most of cases. But I think that the statement "You should never vote ever, period" is too dogmatic.

Edit: explaining why something is harmful is great, though.

[deleted] wrote on December 28, 2019 at 1:42 PM (edited on December 28, 2019 at 1:46 PM)

Bezotcovschina wrote on December 28, 2019 at 2:24 PM

Is it as dogmatic as saying you should vote, considering those people who say that have magical thinking and assume it will fix... anything.

Agree 100%

Seems to me that the word dogmatic has lost all meaning and simply means 'the opposite of what I believe.'

As many words did, really. But I firmly insist that any strict statement, especially "You should always..." or "You should never..." is dogmatic and harmful by itself.

Or, maybe, it's just me wanting to stab people that tell me what to do.

AnarchoSpook wrote on December 29, 2019 at 12:26 PM

Well any kind of appeal starting with "You should always" is referring back to some transcendent plane of ethics detached from direct experience. There is also a striking resemblance between the assumptions of institutional justice imposed by authority and these kind of claims. imo anarchist ethics is really about the inclusion of all but domineering perspectives (whether collective or individual) of the world as we recognize and act on it here and now.

An_Old_Big_Tree wrote on December 28, 2019 at 9:07 AM

I'm under the impression that Trump was a direct result of a Black man having been voted in previously, so I think that when we take a longer-term view on the consequences of a vote, it often undermines this kind of argument.